Volunteering for Salesforce Experience, Specialization and Communicating Value

Unlock the secrets of building a thriving Salesforce career with a twist in our latest episode, where Vanessa Grant chats with the insightful Gordon Lee. We dissect the complexities of volunteering in the nonprofit sector, unraveling how these experiences can shape your career trajectory and their profound impact on the organizations you serve. Prepare to understand the ethical considerations, the importance of long-term commitment, and the nuances of the Nonprofit Success Pack and Nonprofit Cloud that are essential for anyone looking to make a mark in the Salesforce ecosystem.

Have you wondered how to stand out in the Salesforce community or what it takes to create a personal brand that opens doors? This episode has got you covered. With Gordon's seasoned advice, we explore the art of showcasing your expertise, from the power of unique projects to the strategic use of online platforms. We share wisdom on the subtleties of community engagement, the potential of workforce development programs to hone practical skills, and the art of communicating your value to potential employers.

As the landscape for Salesforce professionals continues to evolve, so do the skills required to stay ahead. We wrap up with a forward-looking discussion on the future of Salesforce admin roles and the significance of specialization and certification. Plus, we offer insights on how to find your niche in the Salesforce world, emphasizing the importance of pursuing your passions and the value of authentic engagement. Join us for this thought-provoking conversation that illuminates the path to professional growth and highlights our responsibility as part of the broader Salesforce community.

Transcript

Vanessa Grant: 0:00

All right. Well, I don't have Josh's whole fancy.

Announcement: 0:04

you know intro music today so I'll just kick it off and say and now the number one audio program that helps you to hire, get hired and soar higher in the Salesforce ecosystem. It's the Salesforce Career Show with Josh Matthews and Vanessa Grant.

Vanessa Grant: 0:32

Welcome to the Salesforce Career Show everybody. I'm Vanessa Grant, product owner at fintech company Mosaic, and my esteemed co-host, josh Matthews, is out this week, but we are going to get along despite his absence. I am joined here with our guest for the week, gordon Lee how are you doing, gordon?

Gordan Lee: 0:56

I'm great Thanks for having me here. It's amazing to be a part of this podcast.

Vanessa Grant: 0:59

Finally, Well, I mean, don't say amazing yet. We're still in the early stages. But I appreciate the vote of confidence. I've been actually MIA from the podcast for a little bit because I was hanging out with you at TDX. How was your TDX?

Gordan Lee: 1:13

It was great. I was very, you know it felt much shorter than normal, even though I think it was only the same amount of time as it's always been, I think, just with the sheer amount of AI stuff that I was looking into, especially around data cloud and Einstein prompt and some of these other things that I think will mature very nicely in the next couple of years, it was great to kind of like get into that and also be able to connect with people that I haven't seen in a while, like you and others in the ecosystem that make it worthwhile attending these conferences for.

Vanessa Grant: 1:41

Absolutely, and I mean I don't know. I personally ended up spending most of my time in the community cove. I was getting a little sick of the data and AI, but I don't know. Did you feel the same?

Gordan Lee: 1:52

I definitely did. I realized after my first day that I hadn't even checked out the second floor of the conference because I had been on the third floor most of the day. On the second and last day I decided to actually walk around and see some of the product demo showcases and the booths and the vendors and be like oh right, there's a whole other side of this conference which isn't just networking and hearing user stories but actually seeing what else is being offered by Salesforce and at the time.

Vanessa Grant: 2:17

So yeah, I get it User stories in my business analyst brain. I was like what you saw user stories at TDX.

Gordan Lee: 2:31

And I realized what you meant. So, gordon, why don't you introduce yourself to our audience here? Great, so my name is Gordon Lee. I am the head of data operations and technology here at Common Sense Media. We're a nonprofit based out here in San Francisco.

Gordan Lee: 2:38

I've been a part of the sales ecosystem now for about if I'm doing the math correctly, I think 16 or 17 years at this point, so a long time. Just to sound like an old G just saying that amount of years. I started off as an XML admin at a for-profit when I first started out of college and then basically kind of never looked back and have sort of evolved through the industries of a for-profit, a B Corp, and now to this nonprofit that I'm currently working at called Common Sense. But even prior to all this, I mean, nonprofits have always been a part of my upbringing and my livelihood, so it's a very near and dear place to my heart. But that is my sort of Salesforce trajectory there. In a nutshell, the fun fact about this is that my favorite mascot is Astro, but I've been told by my wife that it should be Cody, since that's her name. But I stick by my Astro love.

Vanessa Grant: 3:26

Well, you know, happy wife, happy life. But we also have Peter. I'm always going to screw up your last name here. Is it Peter Gonza?

Peter Ganza: 3:34

Just like I said the last time, Vanessa, it's whatever you want it to be.

Vanessa Grant: 3:38

I think it's going to be the running gag for this show forever. It's how to pronounce Peter out of pronunciation. Sorry, all right. So the reason why we brought Gordon on is Gordon has written a series of articles and also appeared on the Salesforce Admins podcast in relation to something that we talk about quite a lot on this show, which is volunteering before you actually have job experience in the Salesforce ecosystem. Gordon. I wanted to ask how do you feel about volunteering? To do Salesforce work in order to get work experience?

Gordan Lee: 4:18

Well, I'll give it to you straight right, which is what's in my articles as well, which is, I believe the majority of people should not be volunteering at a nonprofit for their Salesforce work experience. And that's a galvanizing position, and I'm just going to hold by that, because there are exceptions that I believe we'll probably get into as we discuss this. But for the majority of people, I think this idea comes from this sort of transactional interaction that they think that they can have with a nonprofit, which is, you know, I'm going to go help out a nonprofit for X number of months, I'm going to get my experience and then I'm going to bounce out and basically, you know, continue on with my Salesforce career. But the issue there, versus a for profit, is that most often nonprofits are under resourced and underutilized in this area, and so the damage that you can cause, even with good intentions, is so great that you potentially could set a nonprofit's data journey back years if you have no idea what you're doing.

Gordan Lee: 5:14

And in a for-profit setting, I think there's more guardrails in place. There's people, there's resources, you know they have the time and money and energy to, kind of, you know, undo some of the mistakes if they see it, but for a nonprofit the risk is too high. I think the damage that you can do and the bad taste that you can leave in their mouths, for Salesforce and for their data journey is so great that, unless you're willing to stick it out for the long run or be on call and readily available to support them and this goes into some of the exceptions that I'll mention later on it's just generally not a good idea to do it. Yeah, I'll stop there and see if you have any questions on that.

Vanessa Grant: 5:48

Well, I was wondering what inspired you to speak out about your but I would say some would consider potentially controversial stance on this.

Gordan Lee: 5:57

Yeah, you know, I don't know if there was anything that kind of you know made me say I need to speak out about this. This is actually, you know, being in the ecosystem for so long, this is actually one of those things that I've always heard and even, at some point, something that I even advocated, for. I would say, you know, go volunteer at nonprofits, gain some work experience and then you'll go out there. If we're talking about, you know, what is the moment or moments that kind of change my perspective on that. I think a part of that was really just reflecting back on sort of like, well, why am I just parenting this thing that I've heard? What is it about this that is inherently good and what's inherently not so good about it?

Gordan Lee: 6:37

Because I had heard other people basically say the same thing as I have, but just for some reason, maybe I was just the first one to write an article about it and push it out there, but there's been others before me that have blazed this trail and sitting down with those people at these conferences, at user group meetings and, you know, just engaging with people online, it just became clearer and clearer to me that that this idea that nonprofits are there as a stepping stone for your career, especially in this transactional model. It's just did not sit well with me as I kept thinking more and more especially about the nonprofit that I grew up at about how if someone had come in there and done this thing, it potentially could have hurt them so much that it just made me feel like I needed to codify into words what I've been hearing, I think through other various people before me who have sort of had this stance.

Vanessa Grant: 7:23

So am I correct that you run a nonprofit group for Salesforce in your area?

Gordan Lee: 7:30

Yes, I co-lead the San Francisco nonprofit group.

Vanessa Grant: 7:32

And I'd also like to point out that Gordon is an MVP, which is always. I'm still waiting to get invited to that party, gordon.

Gordan Lee: 7:40

It's fine, you got to know which checks to write to the right.

Vanessa Grant: 7:44

That's my problem. So, having been around folks that have been in the nonprofit space, have you heard any horror stories on things that could go wrong or have gone wrong with volunteers?

Gordan Lee: 8:01

Yeah, how much time do we have?

Vanessa Grant: 8:03

We've got plenty. We love stories.

Gordan Lee: 8:06

And like how much can I cuss on this podcast?

Vanessa Grant: 8:09

I think cussing is allowed here. I'm not Mike Gerholt here, right.

Peter Ganza: 8:14

Right, I've been on that one. This is an R-rated podcast, by the way, so let it loose.

Gordan Lee: 8:21

Okay, great, great, so I can drop in some F-bombs here.

Vanessa Grant: 8:23

Yeah, no worries, if you're feeling passionate, go where the words take you.

Gordan Lee: 8:35

Okay, gotcha. So yeah, I mean where to start. I've heard of people okay, I think on the worst spectrum or on the worst case scenario it's really people who are only looking to volunteer at a nonprofit. Let me rephrase that another way. I mean even saying that word volunteer. They're not really looking to volunteer, they're just looking to get work experience by getting exposure to Salesforce, and a nonprofit just happens to be the one that they think will be welcoming them with open arms.

Gordan Lee: 8:58

And I'm not to say that all nonprofits out there don't need the help. They do need the help. But it's similar to saying, like you know, a nonprofit needs an accountant. Like yeah, why don't we just grab someone off the street who says they know QuickBooks? Like that's not, the nonprofits want Salesforce capability first and they get access to the data and they're messing with it and they overwrite their entire database. Or they completely leave them with the bag holding the bag in their hand, because after the three months that they told a nonprofit that they could volunteer, they got a real job quote, unquote and then they decided to not respond anymore. So where to start? I think there's tons of horror stories where nonprofits are left holding the bag with people who are either good intentioned or not and, in terms of this area of just saying like I want to help out with Salesforce and, you know, get them up and running. I know not everyone falls into this camp, but there's been more. I think there's been more horror stories than not when it comes to this area.

Vanessa Grant: 10:06

Do you think that most of the volunteer opportunities are nonprofits that are looking to stand up? Salesforce.

Gordan Lee: 10:13

I, you know, I think so In the past. Yes, I think I've seen a different shift now, now that nonprofits have sort of matured a little bit more with Salesforce. Now they're looking to maybe like integrate some certain things or they're looking to refine the processes that you know for example, a past volunteer got in there and helped. But definitely in the past it went back in the heyday of Salesforce being the gold standard of a free system that nonprofits could easily adopt. Yeah, I mean, people were just waiting, looking for people to help them set up Salesforce, not necessarily knowing exactly what it is that they were asking for. And I lay this blame a lot in my article, like I'm the feet of volunteers or so-called volunteers. But also I think nonprofits have a role to play too. Right, it's similar to what I was saying earlier around if you need someone to help you out with your accounting system, you're going to go through a vetting process and find the proper accountant.

Vanessa Grant: 11:08

You're not just going to pull off someone off the street and say like oh, you said you know QuickBooks, so I'm just going to give you access to our entire financial database. Now I guess, having volunteered at nonprofits for like non-Salesforce stuff, I found that they've been like so like I, you know, used to volunteer at like animal shelters and like bunny stuff in the LA area. I don't know why I got involved in the bunny politics, but I did. And it's amazing to me, though, just because they're so desperate for help that they just don't even necessarily have the time to vet, you know. I mean, I know that I've worked at a even a cat rescue where, like day one my orientation, they gave me a set of keys and we're like sure, come in anytime.

Gordan Lee: 11:45

Right right.

Vanessa Grant: 11:49

Not necessarily something that would happen at a corporation, but I've seen the desperation and I could only imagine you know bringing in somebody just because there's the promise of you know, better fundraising, better management, better organization if you get Salesforce in as far as what can go wrong, you said mostly they start off with the fundraising. We talked about the idea of them overriding an entire database was enough to give me nightmares, any other things that you've heard that can go wrong or that you feel can go?

Gordan Lee: 12:27

wrong. Yeah, I mean, I've heard stories also of the volunteer basically having a heavy coding background, for example, and they basically make the salesperson so programmatic instead of declarative that like nobody without an engineering background can go in there and change anything. And you know, it was great at the time when the volunteer was there for a year or even two, like helping out. But I think the long-term mindset and the mentality of like, okay, I need to hand this over to someone else down the road, who's not me, who maybe doesn't have as much programming experience as me, how do I set them up for success? Like that mindset, that exercise, it just didn't go through.

Gordan Lee: 13:08

Whereas, for example, if you're an employee or if you were a for-profit, they make you go through that type of thinking, for the most part right Of like hey, you know you hit the lottery or you get hit by the lottery bus, like you are no longer here, like how do you make sure that you pass this on? So that comes up repeatedly as well where some other volunteer or someone else is in there helping out and taking over and they can't make heads or tails of it. But you and I both know that's not a unique problem to nonprofits. I mean we see that in the for-profit world also. It's just that for-profits have the advantage over nonprofits in this space and that most of the time, generally speaking, they have more resources to be able to unravel that.

Vanessa Grant: 13:45

Now, I was just going to throw this one up there. Do you kind of feel the same way? I've seen a lot of folks, especially newer folks, in order to build experience, will throw their services for like 20 bucks an hour on Upwork. How do you feel about those? Do you kind of put those in the same kind of bucket? Or at that point you're like, well, if you're paying 20 bucks an hour for Salesforce work, you probably know what you're getting.

Gordan Lee: 14:09

You know, I make a distinction in this in my article as well, in that I think that's a different animal right. I think that is a totally different thing. For a nonprofit to go to a site like Upwork, for example, and know that they're just looking for someone to do very simple work or very much more complicated, like project-based and strategic work, like there you're able to vet candidates, you're able to kind of go through sort of like their portfolio a little bit or the resume and maybe take a look at their qualifications. I mean that alone, I think sometimes is that perception layer, is much better for a nonprofit to say like, okay, this is, I know what I'm getting myself into here. Whereas even if you have a volunteer who's been part of your nonprofit for decades or so, even with the best intentions again like they might not know what they're getting themselves into.

Gordan Lee: 14:59

But I think that's up to the nonprofit to decide right, like maybe I know that this volunteer will be around, even if they mess things up, to help me figure this out, whereas someone I find on Upwork, I'll have them build me a report, I'll have them build me a dashboard, I'll have them help me configure a page layout or build a flow, but I have to be more knowledgeable in my Salesforce in order to basically deal with a contractor that way. So I think there's a there's a place for both. I think it just it takes some onus I think also on the nonprofit to say like, hey, this is what I need, or be aware of what they need.

Vanessa Grant: 15:31

So how does a nonprofit if you, if you are kind of you, know the person who's running around trying to clean up bunny cages, somebody to set up Salesforce, like, like what how do you educate yourself? And then how do you vet so that you can get the right volunteers to help you stand up or maintain Salesforce?

Gordan Lee: 15:50

Yeah, this is a good question, vanessa, because this basically goes back to you know, I keep going back to this finance example Because once I spell it out in this way, most people are like you're right, like why would I give people access to my Salesforce instance if I wouldn't give them access to my accounting system? Right, like why would I give people access to my Salesforce instance if I wouldn't give them access to my accounting system? So I would. I would rephrase your question and say, like okay, if I needed accounting help? Like how would I vet this person?

Gordan Lee: 16:10

And if you don't have the skillset for that, obviously then you have to escalate it to the people in charge of the executive director, the person in charge of programs, you know whatever it is to say like I need someone to help me.

Gordan Lee: 16:25

Maybe sit on this interview or on this phone interview with someone and see if they actually know what they're talking about.

Gordan Lee: 16:29

Right, if you, if you try, if you, as a non-profit, don't have the skill set to even evaluate what you're looking for, I mean don't go looking for candidates. I think that's a bigger discussion and a bigger discovery process that a non-profit needs to go through, instead of just deciding to try to dump someone in front of a system that they got for free and then they're saying like now go figure this out. It'd be different if this was just like all in a sandbox and nothing was touching your day-to-day work and not impacting your day-to-day work. But the stuff that you potentially could give someone access to in terms of like your donor database, your membership database, like the personal information, like their addresses, their phone numbers, all that stuff I database, like the personal information, like their addresses, their phone numbers, all that stuff I think that the risk is just too great for someone nowadays to say like, yeah, come on in, and you know, you told me that you have three years of Salesforce experience.

Vanessa Grant: 17:15

So, yeah, you can totally figure this thing out. So with the nonprofit vetting, I guess I totally agree with you. I think having having somebody there I think that's actually a really great idea. I was actually also going to ask, like, do you think that, let's say I was a nonprofit and I was interested in standing up Salesforce do you think going to one of those community groups for nonprofits would be a good place to maybe source those volunteers?

Gordan Lee: 17:38

I think that's. I think it's a good start, right, Like that's still a good place. At least you know that you're getting people who are involved in the ecosystem versus someone who maybe you're just like getting a random application from. I think that the best practice is obviously is to find, like a firm or someone that you know is completely trusted, that you know that you would have no problem handing over your data over to and that they would treat it with the utmost respect and confidence and confidentiality to, and that they would treat it with the utmost respect and confidence and confidentiality. But I think to your point, it is correct. I think that would be a good place to start is to show up to these community groups and say like, hey, who set up your Salesforce instance, who would you recommend? Right, and start listening and you'll hear. You'll definitely start hearing the certain names come up over and over again, or certain firms that keep surfacing, and that's where I think you should start with that.

Vanessa Grant: 18:25

And by firms you mean, like Salesforce partners on the AppExchange.

Gordan Lee: 18:28

Right Salesforce, partners on AppExchange, those that are specialized in nonprofit Salesforce, for example. You know just other consulting firms out there that are specializing in this space of helping out nonprofits.

Vanessa Grant: 18:40

And so you did mention that there might be instances where it might be a good idea for somebody to possibly volunteer. I guess can you think of a scenario where a volunteer opportunity would be good for somebody that's new to the?

Gordan Lee: 18:54

ecosystem happens to have a mentor on staff or someone on staff who already knows Salesforce and they basically can treat you more of like as a junior admin or a contractor. That's helpful because they are able to be the ones responsible overall, internally of if anything goes wrong, like you know, they're still there to help fix everything. You're not the solo admin, you know, and it doesn't all fall on your shoulders to do everything there. I think another factor to consider if this is a good spot is that if you're in it for the long run, like if this is, for example, like if this is a nonprofit that you've grown up with, let's say that you've been heavily involved with and you want to see them succeed no matter what, and you know that you'll be available X number of months or even X number of years after you're done setting them up to be available for questions, or that you're available to train, for example, one of their staff on it, like, basically, if you have the mentality of an offboarding client and you're willing to see that out because you care so passionately about this nonprofit that you're involved with, I think that's definitely an exception where you should totally be able to use your skills and volunteer there, where you should totally be able to use your skills and volunteer there.

Gordan Lee: 20:04

I think the third one, which doesn't get talked about a lot and this usually comes from nonprofits that are a little bit more sophisticated or they've got their stuff together and they're ready to. You know, they know the requirements, they have the user stories and they're like we just need someone to help execute is if they approach you and they're explicitly asking for help. It's different if they're doing a general call out and they're saying, like you know, we need someone to just deal with this here and set up these components. But if they're like hey, listen, vanessa, I've heard from people in these user group meetings that you specialize in creating user stories for nonprofits Like would you mind volunteering with us for a month to like, help us put together a user story so that we can pass those on to our consultants and have them execute on this. I think those are the three areas, those are the three exceptions, really, of when someone should volunteer, because those guarantee more so than most to set up the nonprofit for long-term success.

Vanessa Grant: 20:57

How do you feel if they have a mentor? That's maybe not on staff. So, like I know, there are some folks that are in the ecosystem that do encourage volunteering but offer their mentorship kind of more in the background than actually being on staff.

Gordan Lee: 21:14

I think that's helpful too, but I think that's also just like another degree of false security, right.

Gordan Lee: 21:20

Like, basically, if you think about this from the nonprofit's point of view, they're not dealing with your mentor, they're dealing with you, and so it's great that you are sanity checking yourself and that you have a resource that you can go to to make sure that you're not screwing this up, or at least you know, screwing it up as little as possible based on the best of your knowledge at the time. But at the end of the day, the nonprofit is dealing with you, and so if you are not available or if you don't know how to help them and you're going to have to keep going back to your mentor. I think that's okay, but it's going to be a lot harder versus, like, if they had someone on staff who is already in-house and that's their full-time job and they're dedicated to helping out that nonprofit. Like they're available there to help and you're just basically support. That obviously is a better scenario, but I think to your question it's doable, but I think from a nonprofit's point of view it's still a big risk.

Vanessa Grant: 22:13

And how should that mentor-mentee relationship look like when they're at a nonprofit?

Gordan Lee: 22:21

Can you clarify that a little bit Vanessa?

Vanessa Grant: 22:23

Yeah, like, let's say, you're joining a nonprofit, there's somebody on staff. How do you, how do you, how should that relationship look like so that you feel like you are getting the experience you need but you're also learning this person Like are they the one doling out work to you? Are you just they're mostly just as execution? Are there like expectations of how many times you should be meeting per week? Things like that? Like I'm trying to think of what does a successful relationship look like if you're at a nonprofit, so that you know that you're actually getting the experience that you need to further your career?

Gordan Lee: 23:03

I mean, I would think that this is this would be like with any other instance, nonprofit or not, if you were a consultant, right, like you basically have to meet with your stakeholder. In this case it would be the employee that's that's already full-time with the nonprofit and you have to set expectations, but you know we'll be once a week. This is what I'm responsible for. I need to know what you're responsible for. I want to collaborate with you and figure out some things. Maybe there's some areas that I, as a volunteer, would love to explore, if that's within the realm of possibility, right, like maybe building out some flows for you, or something like that. But I think that that definitely is a conversation and I think the best relationships in that particular area have that clearly defined right. Very much just like a contractor relationship where you know exactly what you're going in for, you know how much time you're going to be there for, you know when you're going to exit and you know where you can contribute and you know where your skills gaps are, so that maybe there is a mentorship opportunity from that employee to say like, oh right, you might not be up to speed on validation rules, but like, hey, you know what? Why don't you write these five and then I'll double check them for you, and that way you can gain some experience in that way. And so I think that's that's. That's a conversation.

Gordan Lee: 24:08

I don't think it works if you go and you just start dictating terms, right? I think that's also another. I think that's also another sort of misnomer. A lot of times, when people volunteer at these nonprofits, is that there seems to to be this pyrodynamic where they're like well, you need me, so I'm going to go in and basically like help you, but at the same time, like I'm going to do it for me and and and have these, these points that I want to hit. Like I want to make sure you know I, what you don't want to do is say like, just because I, as a volunteer, don't know service cloud, you don't want to make that nonprofit, get service cloud If that's not what is within their realm of ability to support or even do.

Gordan Lee: 24:43

And that was a lot.

Vanessa Grant: 24:45

Yeah, that was good though.

Gordan Lee: 24:47

It's a lot for this, I'm sorry.

Vanessa Grant: 24:49

I mean no, but I mean it's an important. I think it's an important point you're making about the mindset that somebody needs to have when they're going into that. It's not just a what can I get out of this. It's what can the nonprofit get out of this and how can I get out of this. It's what can the nonprofit get out of this and how can I volunteer my expertise and hopefully I get something along the way. But really it's about as long as the mindset is focused on making the nonprofit successful, then that's probably a better way to approach it.

Gordan Lee: 25:21

I agree.

Vanessa Grant: 25:22

And.

Gordan Lee: 25:22

I think this is a hard thing for me to reconcile as well when I first started questioning like why I started giving this out, I think I think most people who are about to embark on this journey really need to ask themselves this question of like am I in this to help the nonprofit or I'm in this to help me? And and there can be a little bit of both. But if you're more skewed towards the helping you part, I think that's where you need to take a step back and say maybe I'm not the best fit for this nonprofit. I get it. I need to find more experience, and this is usually the path that I've been told or that I have heard from others in the ecosystem that I should do in order to gain the work experience. Yeah, but if you ask yourself if you're very truthful with yourself, if you're truthful with yourself on the answer to that question, I think that'll help you guide you as to whether or not you should do it. Because if you start thinking that, like, all right, like it should really benefit me to volunteer at a nonprofit, hopefully under the guidance of mentor on staff, so this, interestingly enough, I think this is where what you mentioned earlier, like finding platforms like Catchafire or Upwork, where nonprofits already listed it. Those nonprofits usually are an indicator that they're a little bit more sophisticated in their strategic thinking around Salesforce adoption, and so you'll probably have a better chance of things not going wrong by using those platforms. So I would definitely recommend those to start, because those are very much set with the perception of it being transactional and that you're here just to do this one thing and then disengage after 10 hours or whatnot. One other spot, another spot that you also mentioned, would be around the user group meetings.

Gordan Lee: 27:11

Although I don't know if people have experienced this, I think after a while, especially at the nonprofit group that I co-lead, you get so many people who come in asking this question. It's clear that all they want to do is gain experience and not actually help, and so then you get the rest of the people who've been around for a while not wanting to give that information out, because you know they don't want to expose the nonprofits that they hold near and dear to their heart to that type of harm. So that's a hard. I guess that was a right about way of not answering your question on that one, on that particular one, but it is the platforms is where I would recommend to start.

Gordan Lee: 27:49

I think the other thing is word of mouth, and if you don't have a lot of people involved in a nonprofit space because I also get this question all the time like it's going to be difficult because you know it's similar to saying like, hey, can I, can someone recommend to me a good babysitter? Right, I'm not just going to get anybody off the street to like look after my kids. I'm going to listen to the people who I trust or who are my friends or who have gone through similar experiences, and so if I hear a certain name or a certain babysitter come up more often, that's who I'm going to go with. And so it's hard to break into that and I hear the detractors in this already, because it's this whole thing about like, well, if I don't have any work experience, how am I supposed to get work experience? And if volunteering in a nonprofit was the thing that I was counting on, well, then how am I supposed to get work experience now?

Vanessa Grant: 28:25

I sure hope nobody's counting on it. That would be a yeah. That's a rough pipeline to getting a Salesforce job, especially given the you know that we want it to be and we see this all the time. You know, if you don't have the right mentors at your first or even second or you know Salesforce gig, you just end up learning things the wrong way. You end up like developing somebody else's bad habits?

Gordan Lee: 28:51

Yeah right, not that you can't undo it, it's just your journey is going to be a little bit more jagged and a little bit longer than others. Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Grant: 29:01

So if, let's say, you were committed to finding a volunteer opportunity at a place that you loved and you really did want to add value somewhere, what kind of a commitment do you think somebody should look at? As far as how long, how many hours per week? Is there kind of a minimum there that you think?

Gordan Lee: 29:21

You know, I wouldn't say that there's a standard structure there, because it's going to depend on what the nonprofit needs, right? I mean, if they just need someone to, for example, like create like a few reports, like that's definitely be less of a time commitment than if they're like we need you to help to be very clear and honest with yourself in terms of, like, how much time you can actually dedicate between, let's say, your other job or your other responsibilities in your family life and your other volunteer opportunities and the ability for you to give. And so you are going to have to figure this out. I mean, I, if we're looking for like a standard structure, I mean, you know, at least an hour a week, I would say, but again, this is going to depend on what that nonprofit needs from you.

Vanessa Grant: 30:10

Makes sense, and I've also heard that, since a lot of nonprofits use, like NPSP, the Nonprofit Success Pack, and I think there's also like isn't there like a nonprofit cloud too, sorry, nonprofits, definitely not my area of expertise. Nonprofit cloud too Sorry. Nonprofit's definitely not my area of expertise that even volunteering at some of these spots isn't even necessarily going to improve your Salesforce skills if you're not looking to actually continue to work at nonprofits. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Gordan Lee: 30:38

That is completely correct Salesforce, npsp and now the new NPC. So Nonprofit Success Pack versus the Nonprofit Cloud. I mean these are two. They are built on the Salesforce platform but they are completely different data models compared to what most people know is like the core Salesforce platform. So just because you know how to do quote, unquote regular Salesforce does not mean you know how to do anything inside NPSP or NPC. I mean I'll tell you that, like I've been doing, I've been involved in this NPSP space now for I don't know a good eight years or so and I don't. I would say if someone were to come to me and be like, help us out with Salesforce Nonprofit Cloud at this new nonprofit that's installing Salesforce, I would totally discount myself from that because I know nothing about NPC at the moment. So correct, like there's no way, there's no one-on-one correlation where if you know Salesforce you're going to know NPSP and vice versa. It's the same thing.

Gordan Lee: 31:29

I also tell nonprofit people data models on this that that fundamentally alter sort of like where you might be, where your skill sets are. I mean you'll pick it up over time, but it's not a one-for-one translation obviously at all. So you have to like figure out like it's like speaking a different language, almost right. It's almost like I don't know where my analogies today. It's like american english versus british english, like there's enough similarities, but there's certain things that you're going to get caught like I don't know where my analogies today. It's like American English versus British English, like there's enough similarities, but there's certain things that you're going to get caught up on and be like what did you call that? Or like how do you spell that? Or like why is it called this versus that in this language versus the other? And that's where people get completely confused when it comes to NPSP. So don't think that just because you know Salesforce core or Salesforce NPSP, that you know the other one.

Vanessa Grant: 32:24

Is Trailhead the best spot to learn about NPSP and Nonprofit Cloud?

Gordan Lee: 32:28

I think that's the first spot to go to. I mean, I really wish this stuff had been around when I first started in Salesforce ecosystem, but yeah, that is definitely like the best spot to do, at least from studying on a high level, and obviously, you know, the second best is to get experience, which is, I know it, just completely contradicted myself with this entire statement there about this entire podcast.

Vanessa Grant: 32:48

Well, as long as you have a mentor, as long as you have a mentor, it's a good learning opportunity and they know what they want.

Gordan Lee: 32:55

A mentor or you're willing to stick it out for the long run.

Vanessa Grant: 32:57

There we go, been in the Salesforce ecosystem for a little bit and they are interested in doing a solo volunteering thing where they would help a nonprofit, maybe that they care about stand-up Salesforce. What skills do you think that they should have before they take that on, especially if they're doing this solo? I think that's really the thing, Because I mean, what I heard from you earlier was like you should know how, like you should be willing to document, so you should have documentation down because you're not necessarily going to be there forever. You know, besides the willingness to stay, but also knowing some architecture, I imagine, so that you aren't just kind of coding everything and you understand some of those Salesforce best practices. Is there anything else?

Gordan Lee: 33:48

Oh, how much time do we have left, vanessa? I mean, I think first and foremost well, not first and foremost. I think one thing that you definitely have to have in mind is an exit plan. Right, I know I mentioned and I harped on like you need to be available, but you also, realistically, are not going to be available in perpetuity. You are not a full-time employee there, so you're going to have to think of an exit plan in terms of documentation, in terms of training of another staff.

Gordan Lee: 34:15

So one of the first questions that I always ask whenever I get tapped to help out a non-profit like this is say okay, who are the reins being passed to when I'm gone? Right, because that then starts the nonprofit to think about right, he's not going to be around forever. The ownership's on us. We need to find someone to take this over whenever he's not available, or to be the point person when he's not available. Because, again, you know, gordon has his own day job and kids to deal with. So that's one thing to consider is definitely have an exit plan In terms of the question being what skill sets do you need?

Gordan Lee: 34:54

I mean the technical things we already talked about, right, like going into Trailhead, getting up to speed with NPSP and now NPC, because NPSP is being replaced by NPC at some point in time in the future I don't know when, but it is the new flavor that that Salesforce is pushing for nonprofits getting up to speed on that. On the technical side as well, as you know, I'd recommend you know to to show even more dedication to that is to get the nonprofit cloud certification right. That way, like you know, you can prove that, like you, you at least know a little bit more about NPSP than most. That would be, I think, the most you can show on the technical side. I think that the biggest thing and I'm getting tongue twisted here around this is really around the mentality and the mindset of making sure that where you're volunteering with, you're setting them up for success. And that takes its shape in so many forms in terms of documentation, in terms of making sure that someone's going to take over when you're gone, in terms of building things up declaratively versus programmatically, so that you're able to pass the baton on to the next person who doesn't know code, for example.

Gordan Lee: 35:57

But I've also seen in certain ways sometimes certain flows are so complicated that someone who comes in can't take over either complicated, that you know someone who comes in can't take over either. So it's that I think it's that mindset and that mentality of this is an under for the most. Generally speaking, this is an under-resourced nonprofit. They're not going to have, for example, let's say, a dedicated person all the time. How do I make sure that they are set up for success in the long run as much as possible without them feeling like they made a bad investment in a bad decision? That's, I think that's, the biggest piece of advice I have in that mindset area.

Vanessa Grant: 36:32

So I know that you also had a. So your first article was the no sales. I think the first one was the no Salesforce work experience, make your own. It's on Medium, and you had a follow-up which was create your own Salesforce experience. Why don't we pivot to that a bit? Because I think in the absence of I mean, there are just not going to be a whole lot of those kind of ideal volunteer opportunities where you're going to have mentorship, where they have availability and then being able to find them. It's just not realistic for, I would say, most people. But I do think that there are a lot of opportunities to create your own work experience and that's really something everybody can do.

Gordan Lee: 37:20

Correct, correct. Yeah, that's all. It's actually all in the same article, right? And so the second half of the article, basically, was to talk about this point where we've been talking about why you should volunteer a nonprofit, the harms that you can do and things like that. Well, how the hell, then, am I supposed to get work experience if all these jobs that I keep trying to apply to require work experience and nobody will hire me? Right? It's that catch-22 of you. Know, how do I get a job in the ecosystem if they won't hire me unless I get experience? And so the whole thing I'm advocating for is like right, you need to show that you have experience, but don't do it at a nonprofit. So how do you do it?

Gordan Lee: 38:03

So the question I ask people is well, how can you need to answer the question of how can you apply Salesforce to the pain points of your everyday life and create a solution that demonstrates your Salesforce knowledge, right? I mean, if you think about that, that's actually very similar to what you'd be doing with Salesforce at your job. You're trying to find the pain and use Salesforce to solve it. And so I outlined certain examples and people have run with this of like how you can do this right when you sign up for a free developer org, which is amazing that Salesforce gives you these access to their products for free. So you sign up for a free developer org and then you think about what are some real life problems that you have that potentially you could solve for Salesforce.

Gordan Lee: 38:46

Like, for example, like maybe you use Salesforce to track your financial reporting. Maybe you use it to plan a trip and you keep it. You use it to keep track of all your logistics around you know the hotel, the car, the plane rides, all that stuff. Maybe you want to automate some reminders, right, like I know I'm horrible when it comes to like changing my car's oil or like giving the pet their medicine every four to six weeks. Right, like, maybe you set some kind of automated email or Slack message to come to.

Gordan Lee: 39:14

You have experience in this. Sure, it's not quote unquote real life work experience. But as a hiring manager, if you have a portfolio that shows off a really cool, slick solution and I'm looking at two candidates, I mean the portfolio definitely for me would be the differentiator in saying, hey, I know what went into this person building this out, and so I can already see that there's a certain level of experience or technical expertise that they have. So I would most likely lean more towards that candidate than the other one. So that's the big sort of you know aha there, which is spin up a free developer org and just think about your real life problems and how you potentially could solve it with Salesforce, and then it becomes part of your portfolio that you can use in your interviews when you get far enough in the interviewing round.

Vanessa Grant: 40:09

So when you say portfolio, do you mean, like creating one of those experience, cloud portfolios or something else?

Gordan Lee: 40:15

Yes, no, that's totally correct. Right A feed developer org and then you have the experience cloud or you're able to basically showcase your solution somehow.

Vanessa Grant: 40:22

Have you seen any creative ways? Or, you know, as a hiring manager, have you seen anybody actually bring it up during an interview, or how do they, how do they present it or what's a way that's? That's impressed you.

Gordan Lee: 40:34

I have not seen anything in my actual hiring manager. I have heard of other people, even prior to me writing this article, like where people have already been doing things. Like I heard this thing one time about someone who used Salesforce to plan their wedding. I was like that's brilliant. That's exactly what this thing was sort of made for to track all your logistics. Someone, I think a while back, used it to track their diaper changes with their baby, just for the heck of it, to see, like how often their baby was needing diaper changes on number ones versus number twos. Like I thought that was hilarious.

Gordan Lee: 41:04

But the sky's the limit, right? I mean, this is the thing around the platform is that you can customize this to however you want. It's up to you and your flavor and how you want to individualize it and that's how you're able to showcase sort of your skillset by doing that. But I have not to answer your question. I have not seen it actually happen, but I'm waiting for it, for the day where you know someone's able to be like oh yeah, this is the thing I built on Salesforce and I used it to track my groceries for the week or something. I mean that would be an, I think, as a hiring manager, that would be amazing to see that they know how to use Salesforce. Because it's interesting, because that actually proves that you know how to use the thing, versus me looking at a piece of paper called your resume and just trusting that you didn't lie about things and that you actually know how to use these clouds that you said you used in a past company for four or five years.

Vanessa Grant: 41:50

Yeah, and I think the portfolio I actually really like portfolios. I've seen some really cool ones. I think when folks just do a dev org, it's a little bit trickier to kind of bring that up in an interview. I've certainly spoken to hiring managers that are like I'm not logging into somebody's dev org and necessarily believing that they're the one who built all this stuff. But if they're kind of doing more like a YouTube demo of their dev org and maybe presenting that on a portfolio site along with problems that they've solved, I think that's a little bit more compelling.

Gordan Lee: 42:24

That's true, I agree with that. I think that would definitely be helpful. I think, depending on who you're talking to in terms of the hiring manager or the team that you might be working on, right, they might actually have more fun getting into your experience cloud side and like trying to decipher what it is that you use to build that screen flow that you're using to power your questionnaire. But yeah, I think I see marriage to both for sure.

Vanessa Grant: 42:43

Sorry, I was on mute. Are there any others?

Gordan Lee: 42:45

I was like oh, did everyone just leave?

Vanessa Grant: 42:46

Oh great, sorry sorry, I miss Josh. Are there any other cool ways that you've seen people create their own work experience other than kind of spinning up a dev org or building a portfolio? Is there anything else you could think of?

Gordan Lee: 43:01

Yeah, the funny thing is basically what you're touching on, right. You know, the funny thing is, you're basically what you're touching on right, and this is where I think a lot of people are trying to figure out their different flavors of how to do. This is like, how do I demonstrate experience, right, how do I demonstrate that, like, I know what I'm talking about? How do I stand out from the crowd, from the crowded applicant pool, you know, between someone with like 10 to 15 certifications versus like maybe myself, who's just like starting off? You know, youtube videos are one way. I mean, that's not really my thing. That might just be a generational thing where, like, I just don't feel like making videos for things like this. That's one way. The portfolio is another way.

Gordan Lee: 43:32

The other thing I'm trying to remember and I can't remember for the life of me right now what it is that I've seen, but I, no, I'm gonna stop there and just say, like, those are the two things that I think would stand out like some sort of videos that showcase that you actually know what you're talking about, or or and or, like a portfolio, experience cloud type of developer org where you can actually like, let people interact with the things that you built so that that way, people can you know, people who know salesforce can be like oh right, I can tell that you used to flow here. Or, like you know, break this down for me. Like, how did you actually build this?

Peter Ganza: 44:08

Sorry, I just want. I just want to jump in. I knew I knew somebody when I worked at Salesforce. I knew somebody that basically built a well, not, they built a blackjack game inside of like on the platform. I'm not saying it got them the job, because they did end up getting hired, but I don't think it hurt and that's a good example of what we've just been talking about yeah, that's actually a really good example, peter.

Gordan Lee: 44:32

Like I think that's interesting because that tells me a couple things, just even hearing that. Right, so that person likes gambling, for example, or that, and also that they are very technical and that they have to program all the randomness of the blackjack deck into the hands that are being dealt. And I would love to talk to that person if I was hiring them. But, like, tell me how you you know dealt with like the dealer's hand versus, like how did you program the fact that they have to stand on 17 versus hitting on a 17? Like I'd geek out over that and I think that would totally stand out for me.

Vanessa Grant: 45:03

I'd geek out over that, and I think that would totally stand out for me. Awesome. Thank you, peter. And Peter, you know we always love your we as the royal we since Josh isn't actually here today but always happy to have your insights as well.

Vanessa Grant: 45:16

So I'm just going to throw out a couple other things that I've heard and I would love you know, Peter Gordon your thoughts on some of these other things that I guess I've seen as far as people developing the vocabulary and also kind of developing their experience threads and answering on the threads in the Trailhead community groups where people are posting their problems every day and you start getting a feel for the common things that people are going to run into in their Salesforce orgs and even if you like throw something out there that's maybe not the best answer, like generally. I find there's so many like rabid answers on those boards that they will like correct you right away.

Gordan Lee: 46:05

I will say that, like in my entire career, I have not been the best about contributing to that community online and for me it's just a personal thing in terms of like. I just never felt like I wanted to engage in that area Cause like I don't, I don't know. I think I think you're right, there's a lot of like out there and it just took me so long to try to figure out what works best and what doesn't. But I think, in terms of what you were saying, I think it is helpful to be able to read through some of the things that come up, especially in those nonprofit community chatter groups, and sort of see what questions are surfacing and see what the best answers are, so that you can sort of get a sense of what it is that they're struggling with. I think that's a totally brilliant way to do some research and immerse yourself in that vernacular and that space and start to get a feel for what nonprofits are going on Great topic, I see it every day.

Peter Ganza: 46:55

And it's not just the Trailblazer community. There's a ton of different Slack workspaces and groups, Reddit, X, Twitter, whatever you want to call it and it's great. A marketer, I tell admins and developers all the time you should definitely be active in all of those places, right, Answering questions, because the more active you are, the more chance that someone's going to see you right and see that you know that area or whatever. It's a long shot, but it doesn't take hours a day, right. I mean, you literally spend 10 minutes a day. And also, I just wanted to point out I got three leads in the last week from the partners channel on the Ohana Slack group, and I wasn't even planning for it. I had just been, you know, answering partner related questions, right, for I don't know, like the last six months and not that often, and all of a sudden, you know, I got a couple leads from it.

Vanessa Grant: 47:48

So there you go. Yeah, ohana Slack is actually a really good call out. There's I mean there's I think there's over 10,000 Salesforce professionals on Ohana Slack now and certainly every day there's just like folks asking questions and really interesting conversations that are happening on there by real Salesforce professionals. And also, I think, you know, getting onto all the boards and Slack channels is also kind of a good way to like almost low key network and people start seeing your name and you start seeing other people's names, so you see kind of who would be good to reach out to if you do get, if you do find yourself in a bind.

Gordan Lee: 48:22

Right, I agree. I mean, that's basically that's branding, right, and I think you might've done like a podcast show on that one in the past, but like, yeah, it's all about like getting your name out there and and and make yourself a little bit more visible, but obviously you should have an idea of what you're doing and speaking about. Otherwise your name and brand are getting out there in a negative way and that's not a good thing either.

Vanessa Grant: 48:42

I mean I don't know if I totally agree with that, gordon. I mean, I mean so I think that there's something to be said about learning publicly, where, if you sometimes it does take like just like we were talking about a little bit earlier how and I'm guilty of this too where you hear somebody say, oh yeah, volunteering is a really great way to build up that work experience and it sounds compelling initially, but sometimes just saying things out loud and making recommendations and having people disagree with you online is also really beneficial.

Gordan Lee: 49:20

I know In that way, I agree. I think we get into trouble in just online in general is when people that are not willing to shift their positions, giving you information or given compelling information to be like oh right, maybe I was wrong about this, I need to rethink this. Right, I think it's where people start digging in. Oh yeah, this is like a whole different thing, Not necessarily related to our podcast, but it's where they start digging in and it goes against logic here that where you're like okay, this is not how the way I do it is strategic, right.

Peter Ganza: 49:49

I mean, I don't go in every day and post something or try to respond to something just for the sake of of doing it right. Right, if it's something that I can add value which is really, you know, at the core of this conversation, this topic right, if you can add value, then go for it, but don't just spam. For the sense of spamming I kind of lean more towards Gordon. Sorry, vanessa, I think this is the one time we actually don't 100% agree.

Vanessa Grant: 50:16

It is okay. I mean, I don't know that I would necessarily like confidently go in and answer something if I wasn't totally clear or had like a resource that I could point to. But I do think, like like certainly I've posted stuff where I had a viewpoint and I had people disagree with me, so maybe it's more on viewpoints rather than like technical expertise, I think maybe there's a differentiator there on, like what's a best practice or what, or the way I would approach a certain thing and then listening to other people's feedback on those things.

Speaker 5: 50:53

Yeah.

Gordan Lee: 50:54

I think there's definitely like a delineation there. I mean, I think there's. You know, the ecosystem is large and with you know, x number of people, hundreds of thousands of people flying around, like you're not going to have everyone be playing on the same page, so there are going to occasionally be some bad actors out there, like you know. I think when ChatGPT first came out, like you could tell there were people who were just taking the answer to questions from some of these groups and throwing it into ChatGPT and then just copy and pasting everything back into the answer, are trying to get their rank up on the charitable community so that they could be voted the best answer and be you know more. Quote unquote visible.

Gordan Lee: 51:28

Really, yeah, and I think that's where that stuff is bad right, like that's not great. And that's where, like you know, if you're new and you're looking into this stuff, you're like what is this sort of garbage that they're putting out there, if you're aware of it? But that's where I think, to your point, the technical stuff versus maybe more of like the viewpoint stuff or the strategic stuff is a little different in that regard.

Vanessa Grant: 51:49

Yeah, I saw I don't know if I mentioned it on the show before, but I saw a really compelling YouTube interview with Tristan Lombard about kind of the creating a personal brand versus a brand of value and part of that being like, before you speak out loud in a public forum, whether it's Slack or Twitter or Reddit or wherever it might be, you know, consider is this going to add value to the community before you post. And maybe, again, it's more towards that mindset that we were talking about earlier, where it's not so much what can I get out of posting this, but what can I actually contribute by posting this Right posting this, but what can I actually contribute by posting this?

Gordan Lee: 52:27

Right Like, are you? Are you looking to help someone else by sharing your knowledge or are you actually just hoping to get recognized for sharing your knowledge? And that is a fine line that only individuals can answer for themselves, right Like, sometimes it's transparent in the way they like word their messaging. But that is definitely. That is definitely the difference between, you know, doing it for someone, like doing it for the community, or doing it for the Ohana, or just doing it for yourself. And I think that's where you get into this sort of dovetailing, then of the conversations that you and I have had around. You know the MVP program or the, you know Trailblazer, community ambassador forums or whatever it is of like you know getting recognition for the sake of getting recognition. Or, you know, would you be doing this even if you didn't get the recognition?

Vanessa Grant: 53:09

I swear, I do this show because I care.

Gordan Lee: 53:11

I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. I think there's. I think there's there's. There's the authenticity that we can feel from that Vanessa, but I think there's there's others out there again, in an ecosystem of hundreds of thousands of people. It's not, not everyone's going to have a Vanessa's character on this whole thing.

Vanessa Grant: 53:27

Thank you. Well, you know, I mean I guess there's also, like you know, that they gamify the answer. You know the answer. Community, to a certain extent, like, does not necessarily encourage the right behavior.

Gordan Lee: 53:38

Right, good and a bad thing. Right, like you get to see who's been answering all the questions, but then, like you know how good are the quality of those answers?

Vanessa Grant: 53:44

Yeah, and then the other thing that I would throw out there, and you know, certainly you're welcome to agree or disagree or have an opinion on whether you think this is a good idea or not, but, like in the, I think since 2022, Salesforce has been financing a click program. Are you aware of click?

Gordan Lee: 54:05

I am. I've actually been sort of shadowing some of the sessions and I think I shadowed one of yours a while back around oh god yeah I hope you receive some value yeah

Vanessa Grant: 54:17

but clicked is a is a is almost kind of like a, a safe space, kind of free way to kind of do. It's like D&D for like Salesforce experience like where you kind of role play as a consultant or a business analyst or an admin. I've even seen some UX sessions and for the most part they're free. I think some of them they do have like maybe a small fee just because they've had some problems with folks dropping out, but at the end of the experience you'd get a certificate of some kind to demonstrate that you actually participated in it. And a lot of these experiences do actually require you to go in and either code something or configure something or do the business analysis for something and working with the team. What do you think about that as far as a way to kind of demonstrate some sort of experience like making your own?

Gordan Lee: 55:09

I think that's.

Gordan Lee: 55:10

I think so that's a very complicated question but I think for the most part, I think it's helpful because I have seen again, I've shadowed a few sessions, so I've seen sort of the work that is being assigned to the participants in terms of what they need to do to, you know, get that certificate, and I think that is helpful right In that, like, yeah, it's actually making you go through like your capstone project or you're making you go actually like figure things out and work with your team and get those hands on experience.

Gordan Lee: 55:38

Now, I think so. So I think for the individual user going through that, the individual going through that, it's helpful in that it builds their confidence. It says, okay, great, like I have exposure to flow, I have exposure to you know visual force, whatever it is, I know how to do some business stories and analysis and things like that. I would say in terms of them being helpful. On the hiring side, it's a crapshoot because unless you are plugged in and aware of what click does I mean you're basically going to a, to a potential employer and saying like, look, I packed it, I passed this quick course, and they're like, great, right, cause they're not going to know unless they are involved with it.

Gordan Lee: 56:15

So I think that's a that's not a new problem. That's obviously, like you know, a market problem of like not being aware of these programs out there. But I would, I would totally advocate that people still do it because it helps build your confidence around actually solving real life business problems in a sandbox, like without having to destroy another organization's actual sales. So, yeah, I think those things are like those workforce development programs out there, and they're various ones I think are super helpful. I think it just depends on you knowing what you're going to get out of it versus, like, what actually is the market awareness of that program afterwards, if that makes sense.

Vanessa Grant: 56:54

No, totally agree, and you know, I think that's one of those things.

Vanessa Grant: 56:57

So I've done quite a bit of coaching and I think usually what I, what I try to tell the learners there is this is a good spot for you to learn the vocabulary that will help you in that interview. But not, it's, it's, it's still going to be. You know, yes, you'll, you'll get some experience, you'll kind of get more of a feel for what it is, especially for folks that are coming from totally different careers and they have, you know, they've only done trailhead, but I think it's more beneficial as far as being able to to speak the same language and actually be able to apply it and maybe even bringing up certain scenarios that maybe you helped solve in an interview. But you do have to do some educating as far as if you're in the interview and explaining and making it really clear and I think this is always one of those things where you want to make it really clear that this was not you being an admin somewhere, that it was like an experience, like a, a fake experience.

Gordan Lee: 57:54

Not, you don't want to say fake, but like that it was, you know, like a like a like, almost like an internship ish yeah, kind of like like you're shadowing a little bit, like you you're kind of like testing the waters, but not necessarily like in a real company.

Vanessa Grant: 58:08

Yeah, and I am a big proponent of like if you're doing a clicked experience, like, don't say that you were an admin at clicked Like you weren't an admin at clicked.

Vanessa Grant: 58:18

No, you were not so just being upfront about what it actually is and doing some of that education. But there is something to be said about being able to talk through some of those scenarios and using the vocabulary that you learn in those experiences to you know. That, I think, can give you some leverage over somebody who maybe has just gotten a certification and just done Trailhead but really doesn't have anything to show for it. Correct, I mean.

Gordan Lee: 58:40

I think the biggest thing about those programs is that it gives participants or the learners the confidence that, like, this isn't a complete mystery to them anymore, like they have some experience, they have some knowledge of what this is going to take and you know how hard it's going to be, or like what they need to navigate through, and so I think it's invaluable in that way. Right, like that's sort of like you know real world experience without going through the real world pain as much, but it's definitely not a substitute, you know, like you've said for, for actually like, for example, like sitting at an organization and getting like a hundred tickets thrown at you in a week. Right, it's not a substitute for that, like you're not going to know the platform through that, but it is helpful. I think it's definitely like a good starting point for a lot of people.

Peter Ganza: 59:18

I just wanted to add to that. I mean not not necessarily specific to to click. There's quite a few of them out there, and you're both on point right especially gordon, you know it builds the confidence especially.

Peter Ganza: 59:35

But anyway, no, it's not about that and it's not necessarily something you know, you put on your resume and you've got a bunch of these. I mean, it's not not necessarily the value is not in that, but you've got something to talk about right, and it's not necessarily the value is not in that, but you've got something to talk about right and it's not talking about. Oh, I did this click course. It doesn't have to be framed in that way. It's something that you did right, something that you booked, and gives you something to talk about. As well.

Gordan Lee: 1:00:03

As Vanessa, you very aptly pointed out the vocabulary right and the nuances, and if you put all those together, you know against another candidate that you know that could very well be the thing that makes you stand out and actually get the role thinking through as I'm putting on my hiring manager hat and I'm looking at that resume and I see that, like someone said, like I'm with the HIC program and I learned how to put together, you know, let's say BA stories, right, like that's a talking point that I can latch on to be like, well, tell me about this program, like what did you do in this program? And that already is helpful enough for the candidate to then feel confident they can talk about it. Versus if I'm looking at a, at a candidate's resume and there's like no inkling of Salesforce experience on here. Like I'm then stuck trying to figure out what to talk to you about to gauge what your experience level is, and so it's helpful.

Gordan Lee: 1:00:55

I think that you're totally correct. That's helpful to have as a talking point, to be like, oh cool, like I see that you learned how to build reports and dashboards through this course. Tell me about that. Like what was your favorite type of report? What was the hardest one, you know, and then you can kind of suss out, sort of like how qualified this candidate is.

Peter Ganza: 1:01:10

Did you hear that, Vanessa? He said I was totally right. This is totally not like. Not, Josh. Josh, never say that.

Vanessa Grant: 1:01:19

Thank you, gordon. You know we do need to inflate Peter's ego occasionally and I appreciate that you're here to help us do that and support.

Gordan Lee: 1:01:28

Peter here, I get the sense that he needs a confidence boost a lot.

Vanessa Grant: 1:01:32

So, gordon, is there anything else that you think is important that we maybe didn't cover in the show that you want to throw out there to folks that are interested in volunteering or creating their own Salesforce experience?

Gordan Lee: 1:01:46

You know I don't have anything else in this area.

Gordan Lee: 1:01:49

I think we've kind of like covered a lot, but I will end with this and this is sort of like what I tell everyone as they're looking into this ecosystem for work is that you know, in the beginning, people rightly so focused 90% on the technology and 10% on the people.

Gordan Lee: 1:02:03

Because you're trying to learn a vernacular, you're trying to deal with, you know what the hell is this validation rule, like what is this flow? And you're trying to get into the weeds of everything. But I think, as you have to remember at the end of the day, that Salesforce is a tool and tools are used by people, and if you don't know how to deal with people, you're not going to know how to effectively deal with the tool. And so I say, you know you start off 90% tech, no-transcript people. Either way, whatever you end up doing, you're going to be dealing with people, you're going to be interacting with people. You need to get requirements out of people. You need to get user stories out of people. Don't forget the people skills as well. The technical skills are important, but don't forget the people skills.

Vanessa Grant: 1:03:03

A lot of these are great for the technical skills. How do you develop those people skills and show that experience? Lot of these are great for the technical skills.

Gordan Lee: 1:03:09

How do you develop those people skills and show that experience? Oh, I don't know if we could show that experience. That's a hard, oh, that's a hard one. I mean, there's there's in the business setting, there's the things around, like you know, being good public speaking and giving good presentations, as there's obviously courses around that. But I think it's more important, not more important.

Gordan Lee: 1:03:24

I think one of the more, one of the other important factors is, you know, as as I'm sitting down with a candidate, or even as you're sitting down with a potential employer, you need to ask yourself, like, as you're dealing with these conversations of like, would I be okay spending eight plus hours a day with these people, right?

Gordan Lee: 1:03:44

Or with your manager, or with your hiring manager, and, and you, and those things are not technical skills, those things are people skills. Like you have to figure out how to determine if this is a good fit for you or not, right? This is very much almost like as if you're going on a date and you're trying to figure out if this is someone that you want to keep spending time with. I think you have a copy of Vanessa for, like, maybe a future podcast, because we can go on for like another two hours on this. But this is totally an area that I think a lot of times people forget, and especially when they have their head down dealing with the technical stuff, which is okay, but like, eventually your head has to come up and then you have to remember that you have to deal with the people skills as well.

Vanessa Grant: 1:04:17

I'm sure Josh has a ton to say about the people skills as well.

Peter Ganza: 1:04:21

Great point.

Peter Ganza: 1:04:22

I was going to bring up something with not so much a question but maybe it is a question in there somewhere but around the PII, right, it was a very important point that you made earlier about you know people getting in and screwing things up, right, and I wanted to ask I mean, I love Not-for-Profits near and dear to my heart for personal reasons, which is another podcast but what's your take on?

Peter Ganza: 1:04:42

You know, like now there's sandbox data masking and I mean it's not like I'm selling a product, but there's easy ways and even Salesforce went down this road, you know, because this is such a, I guess, an opportunity for them. But I see it all the time where you know you've got consultants, developers, architects, admins in an org and they're messing shit up, right and shit up. But if you get a sandbox and you copy over all the data from production and then you can mask the PII, which in a lot of countries you actually have to do that I was just curious about what you think about that in general, but also as a way to get into a not-for-profit, to be able to look at that and say you know, you've got this liability right and maybe I could help you with this, I don't know, just like a conversation point.

Gordan Lee: 1:05:36

I mean I think in terms of that. I mean, you know, this is interesting because it's obviously standard practice. Now, right, or that's a best practice of like you should really make sure that, like people don't have access to your data. You know, if I'm working with a consultant, like it's standard practice for them to sign an nda so that when they're looking at production data, for example, like they're not, you know, doing something malicious with it and if we find out they are now we have the right to sue and whatnot. You know, those protections aren't in place so much when you're a volunteer, unless you're very good about your process and you're like, okay, you need to sign this nda.

Gordan Lee: 1:06:04

But you know, in practicality, a lot of times nonprofits are just like I've known Gordon and Snobbub for 10 years. I trust that they're not going to do something with it, but at the same time, are you willing to take that risk? That's totally up to the nonprofit. Hey, we need to have some security measures around your Salesforce instance, or here's why I want to make some recommendations based off of that. But at the same time, I don't know how sticky that is for a nonprofit to want to invite someone in to do that I feel like that's one of those spaces that, similar to the accounting example that I've been given, that they might want to bring in like more of like a firm or a security expert to be like, hey, like, tell us what we need to lock down in the context of, you know, gdpr or CCPA or some of these other data recommendations that are out there in the market today.

Vanessa Grant: 1:06:58

And just for our listeners, Peter, what's PII Personally?

Peter Ganza: 1:07:02

identifiable information and I love the answer. Gordon, I completely agree. The reason I brought it up is I used to work at a PII partner that basically helps with that, and one of my favorite stories was the NRC, the Norwegian Refugee Council. Long story short, they serve the furthest to reach most difficult groups of people that they can find, so think of in war zones and those kinds of things, right? Anyway, what that means is they're volunteers that are out there, right? Their personal information is life or death, right, if that would get out like literally, lives are on the line in that case for an after profit, right. But good stuff, thanks.

Vanessa Grant: 1:07:48

Cool, and we actually had somebody in the audience that asked to speak. Juanito, do you have any questions for us?

Speaker 5: 1:07:55

Hey everyone, thank you for allowing me to come on stage. You know I've spoken to you and Josh before via LinkedIn. I just had a question. I was recently laid off from a Salesforce admin position. I was there for about like two, two and a half two and a half years. I'm not bitter by it. It was a good company. They gave me a severance package and all that. But my question is this I'm seeing a lot now on LinkedIn because I've been off the market now for two and a half years. I'm seeing that admin skills employers are looking for a lot of developer skills and admins. Is that the future of being an admin in Salesforce now, or not only that? I'm seeing also, too, where there's specialized certifications or you have to have some type of specialty knowledge like field service, lightning and things of that nature, and I'll just land with that.

Vanessa Grant: 1:08:52

I'll throw it out to our panelists first if you guys have any feedback for Juanito.

Gordan Lee: 1:08:56

I was going to say, vanessa, that's all yours, okay.

Peter Ganza: 1:09:01

I was going to say the same thing. Fine, fine, you start and then we'll jump in, but happy to add to whatever She'll be totally right, she'll be totally right.

Vanessa Grant: 1:09:11

Oh, I don't know about that, but you know, I think we've it's rough out there for admins. I mean, even go on to Trailhead and like they have this whole admin skills kit which has like 14 skills that an admin needs to have in order to be a solo admin. Is like project management, business analysis. But one thing that you don't see on there is developer. I don't, I think maybe like the old school, like when when everybody was in classic it was a lot more, it was a lot more normal to see kind of the admin slash developer, just because the ecosystem was still kind of sorting itself out. I think these days, it days it's totally fine to just focus on your admin skills as far as configuration goes, and that a lot of companies are outsourcing those more development skills or they have a separate developer on staff that has some basic admin skills and configuration skills and knows how to use them. You know, as far as the best practices, so you're not kind of creating this big custom org. But as far as specialization, though, I do think that there is some value in specializing. There are so many Salesforce clouds now.

Vanessa Grant: 1:10:25

I know one of the things that I tend to tell folks especially that you know, especially that I've mentored is if you love sales and service cloud, like for sure, if you, if you see a role that where they have that or they have one of those industry clouds like financial services cloud or health cloud or something like that, getting those certifications I, even if you don't necessarily have the experience, but it's an area that you're passionate or wanting to move your career in that direction, I think studying up on those is certainly a good way to at least show that you are putting in the work because you do want that experience. I know one thing that I've certainly encouraged folks to do and this is kind of how even I fell into business analysis is if you are interested in a certain area or you're just curious about an area maybe that you just don't know a whole lot about, go find the people that are experts in them, that are speaking on those things. Go to a webinar. Go look at the Salesforce YouTube channels on those things and see if it, you know, kind of does something for you. Like you know, I know for me. Like the first time I heard Ian Gott speak about business analysis and creating a center of excellence, like those are the things that got me really jazzed and it helped me kind of figure out the direction that I wanted my career to go in.

Vanessa Grant: 1:11:53

But I know folks that have, you know, sat in on and learned about field service lightning and found that they wanted to keep learning more. And I think it's really difficult when you're kind of pushing your career on like oh, there's a lot of jobs out there for CPQ. Maybe I should learn that and you hate it Like that I discourage. I think if you find the thing that you're passionate about, your passion will come through. But find the thing that you want to keep working in, that you want to keep learning more about, and specializing and niching in either industries or cloud, that I think is a good thing. But that's just my two cents.

Gordan Lee: 1:12:28

Peter, why don't you jump in, and I'll jump in after you.

Peter Ganza: 1:12:30

Sure. So totally, totally agree, vanessa, and just wanted to add a couple of things. The Trailhead is amazing, but it's disconnected from the partner ecosystem, from the customers, right. So don't base your thinking, your focus, based on what trails or trail mixes are on Trailhead. That's just one thing. The other piece is just in line with what Vanessa said. You're going to see all kinds of different approaches, different job descriptions, and I totally understand where you're coming from. That kind of feels like it's going more towards the developer. Ignore all that noise. Do what you love and whether that's an industry or a specific cloud, don't like she said. There is a lot of CPQ jobs out right now. There's a lot of data cloud related stuff out now, but if you don't like doing that or it rubs you the wrong way, it's not for you, right. So find something that you actually enjoy doing and focus on that. There are lots of opportunities out there. You just need to put in the work and, frankly, grind it out. Focus is the number one thing.

Gordan Lee: 1:13:48

I don't think there's much more to add on my end based on what they've said. It's really you know you can chase it right. You can chase the niche that you want to go after, but if you come across, you know that you don't like it or that you can't stand it right. That's a different mentality around. You know what you're able to, let's say, let go of, versus like maybe you just need to get a job for whatever reason. Right, I totally understand that part of life as well. So, but let's assume we're coming from a place where, like you have the privilege and the freedom to, you know, pick and choose a little bit and say like, yeah, I don't want to do this because I don't believe in this industry or I don't believe in this product. Then I would totally say like, yeah, like, go figure out what you like and go after that. And yeah, there's always going to be noise around these different industries and different clouds because sales are so huge now, there's always going to be noise about these different industries and these different clouds. But if you know what you like and what you're centered on, then you know what to pay attention to and what not to. So if you think that you always wanted to like go into development, maybe dabble in a little bit development. Maybe dabble in a little bit, and if you like it, go for it, and if you hate it, like you know, discard it aside. But it's it's totally up to you in this regard, like, I don't think you need to only focus on one versus the other.

Gordan Lee: 1:15:00

Now to your question around, like you know, maybe to your to your bigger question of like, do we see admin jobs, maybe taking on more technical skills, I would answer hesitantly, yes, but not necessarily to the level where you need to know, like an entire programming language.

Gordan Lee: 1:15:11

I think the admin job is evolving past, just, you know, user password resets and creating simple reports and dashboards right. Again, this is where I also say focus on the people skills, because those things are much more irreplaceable with AI and technology. But I think there is more of a push towards, you know, not just Salesforce being the core focus of, but of automations and also integrations with other systems. So, whether that's code, or whether that's knowing about middleware platforms like meal, soft and boomy and things like that, or data cloud, for example, right, I think that's where I see a lot of movement towards an industry where people, any system or any sorry, any business, of any size, of any for-profit or non-profit status, has data spread out all over the place and they need to try to figure out solutions on trying to create that, that holy grail of a 360 customer.

Vanessa Grant: 1:16:01

Yeah, and actually I just popped on to adminsalesforcecom slash skills kit, which kind of outlines the main skills of a Salesforce admin and I think even specializing in some of these areas is if you want to be an admin that specializes in having a designer's mindset, can you do business analysis.

Vanessa Grant: 1:16:20

Some of the other ones on here it's communication, problem solving, attention to detail, learner's mindset, user management, security management, business analysis, data analysis, data management, learner's mindset, user management, security management, business analysis, data analysis, data management, designer's mindset, product management, project management, process automation and change management. What's great about the admin skills kit is also, if you click in on any of those skills, not only will they give you some resources on how to dig into each of these skills a little bit more in depth, but they'll also give you examples of how to represent your skills on a resume for each of these and for any employers out there. They'll also give you examples on how to represent those skills on a job description. I think there's obviously a challenge in the industry sometimes where they're looking for an admin and so they'll just have their HR team chat, gpt or copy somebody else's job description and not necessarily know what they need to be looking for in an admin, so a good resource, I think, all around.

Peter Ganza: 1:17:19

One thing I'd like to add. I'll speak on behalf of Josh here, just because one of the best pieces of advice Josh ever gave me was, like you, I was laid off and all pumped ready to go. I think it was literally like the next day I had a call with with Josh, and he'll describe it as all right. I was all excited and you know, go, go, go. And he said you know what, dude, you need to process what happened, and I I I didn't really understand at the time what he meant, but it's different for everybody.

Peter Ganza: 1:17:51

I think for me it was just a couple of days, whether it's a week or even two. That was a long part of your life, right? And you spent, I think you said, two and a half years there, right? Yeah, don't just start right off the bat applying and going full bore. Just set that all aside and process it. Just take a few days. That's what worked for me and you know, try not to think about it. And it actually really made a difference for me and I always say that's the best piece of advice Josh ever gave me and I share it often.

Speaker 5: 1:18:28

Thank you, thank you.

Vanessa Grant: 1:18:30

Awesome. Thank you for your question, juanito, and best of luck on your job search. And very typical of our show, I say we're going to wrap things up, or Josh says we're going to wrap things up, and then we go for an extra half an hour. So thanks everybody for hanging out. Peter, where can people find you?

Peter Ganza: 1:18:44

Did you mean Gordon, because everyone knows where to find me. Well, you know I'm the happy change for her, but I was going to finish with Gordon, but no, no, it's okay. You can find me on LinkedIn, peter Ganza, or Ganza, as you and Josh like to say. I'm also on Twitter at GanzaP. Yeah, I just I'm an alumni and I help partners. You help partners basically fix their screwed up marketing strategies, because they all stink.

Speaker 5: 1:19:11

Are you taking Gonzaga to win? This is a little funny joke.

Peter Ganza: 1:19:18

The answer to every life question is always multi-select.

Gordan Lee: 1:19:25

And Gordon go and Gordon go. You can find me on LinkedIn underneath my URL, gq Lee, or you can find me on Twitter or X or whatever the hell we're calling this thing these days under Salesforce Lee.

Vanessa Grant: 1:19:36

Awesome. Thank you guys so much and it's been a great conversation. Appreciate having you all here. Josh should be here for the next show and I think it's been a great conversation. Certainly a volunteer opportunity has been something that has come up a lot and I'm so glad, gordon, that you were here to kind of talk through some of the things that I've been trying to say but can't say as eloquently as you. But I am a little disappointed you didn't drop an EF bomb.

Gordan Lee: 1:19:56

Maybe next one Maybe next one All right.

Speaker 5: 1:19:58

When is the next show? Me too.

Peter Ganza: 1:20:00

But yeah, thanks a lot, gordon, this is great.

Gordan Lee: 1:20:02

I really appreciate it. Thanks, Peter. Thanks for having me, Vanessa.

Speaker 5: 1:20:05

When are you having the next show, by the way?

Vanessa Grant: 1:20:07

Oh, we do this every two weeks, so it'll be 2.30 Pacific two weeks on Wednesday.

Peter Ganza: 1:20:13

Awesome. I thought last time Josh said something about changing to like a weekly format and splitting shit up. I don't know. We're in talks.

Vanessa Grant: 1:20:24

We're trying to figure it out, but also you should be able to catch this. We post it as a podcast on Spotify, apple, anywhere you would buzz something, but anywhere that you listen to podcasts, buzzsprout. That's what it is. And, of course, everybody check out the Salesforce Recruiter, my co-host, josh Matthews, and we also have the Expand Exchange on there for folks that are looking for resources to guide them on their Salesforce careers. Thanks, everybody.

Gordan Lee: 1:20:49

Thanks everyone.

Vanessa Grant: 1:20:50

Have a good night.