And now the number one audio program that helps you to hire, get hired and soar higher in the Salesforce ecosystem. It's the Salesforce Career Show with Josh Matthews and Vanessa Grant.
Josh Matthews:All right, well, welcome everybody. This is your host, josh Matthews, and our wonderful co-host, vanessa Grant, might be able to show up a little bit later on, but you can't make it right away, but we have Peter Ganza in her place. Peter is a regular on the show. He's regular on the panel. We've had an opportunity to hang out and spend time at the Life Sciences Dreaming down in Fort Lauderdale just this past season, and so if you have a question on our live show, what I'm going to ask is you raise your hand and I'll call you up, and if you are a little bit shy, don't worry about it, it's okay, that's what Peter's here for. You can just go ahead and DM him a message on Twitter, okay, or X-spaces or X, whatever it's called. So that's all you got to do. Today's a special day because we're doing a real departure from our normal topics. Our normal topics, our Salesforce and careers. Go figure, today we've got Janet Pack, and Janet and I had an opportunity to hang out and meet when I ran a live podcast from the Home for Marketers booth sponsored by Cercante during Dreamforce, and she was in the audience and she came up and she asked a question. We had a nice little discussion. If you go back a few podcasts, you'll have an opportunity to listen to that one. It had a marketing focus.
Josh Matthews:Today's episode is really focused around style personal style. Okay Now, janet has five years of experience as a stylist. She saw a need for professionals to better understand, have a better foundation for how they can upgrade their image to help them reach some of their personal and professional goals. So she's joining us today to give recommendations and advice to all types of people within our ecosystem. So if you are interested in leveling up your style and believe that it will make an impact on your career, I can assure you it does have an impact on your career. How you look and appear to others matters. At times it's not the thing that matters most, but it does matter. So, janet, welcome to the stage. Go ahead and unmute. Let's get this show rocking and rolling.
Janet Pak:Thank you so much, Josh, for all the amazing energy and enthusiasm you're bringing to today's show. I'm really excited to talk to everyone and share some really great tips that everyone can put into action right away.
Josh Matthews:Fantastic. So first of all, tell us what is a stylist.
Janet Pak:I, as a stylist, my job is to help clients and help individuals really understand how they can really upgrade and use their style to level up in their personal and professional goals. I help them understand their body shape, body types and how they can use the right wardrobe pieces to accentuate those styles and make an impact.
Josh Matthews:Fantastic, and when you talk about impact, I'm assuming that you're not only discussing or talking about how they appear to others, but possibly how they feel about themselves and their level of confidence as well.
Janet Pak:It's absolutely related to how you feel. Your self-esteem and your self-confidence has a direct impact with what you wear and how you show up in your personal or professional appearances.
Josh Matthews:Okay, fantastic, all right. Now I know that you've put together a little bit of information to help the audience here and that some of these tips and tricks or not tricks, but some of these recommendations and tips to help the individuals who are listening to this program now identify where they might be able to have some improvement. And it's going to be a little bit different depending on your gender and depending on your style and possibly depending on what country you're in. Your listen to this show is listened to in over 21 countries, and so it's going to be a little bit different. But you're a US based West Coast Bay Area resident, but my guess is that you have some experience understanding the difference between Dallas, new York, and, you know, toledo, ohio.
Janet Pak:Absolutely, and so my tips will be more broader, depending on your region and the type of role whether it's more client-facing or more individual contributor and depending on if you're more in the office, if you're in the office more often and versus being permanently based at home.
Josh Matthews:Okay so let's say we've got someone. I'm just going to pick a random name. Maybe their name's Steven Greger. Okay so, maybe there's a guy named Steven Greger and he wants to upgrade his style. What's the first thing he needs to think about?
Janet Pak:The first thing I'd recommend for Steven is to have a couple of simple everyday basics that he can mix and match for working at home and going to the office. Like a well-tailored shirt is never. You can never go wrong with a well-tailored shirt, a button-down shirt and a nice solid color. Nothing really bright, nothing busy, nothing printed, just a nice like chambray denim or a white or a light color, because that really has an impact on how you feel and makes you feel more professional, makes you feel like you're ready to go to work.
Josh Matthews:Okay, so skip the black duster for the office meeting. Is what you're saying.
Janet Pak:Yes, and skip the flannels and the plaids and the prints. Okay.
Josh Matthews:You're saying don't wear like a broadcloth, plaid shirt.
Janet Pak:No, no, it's too much. Simple. Simple is effortless. Simple has an impact. Simple makes you feel polished and professional and ready to go in and make an impact on the day.
Josh Matthews:Okay, and then now, so many Salesforce professionals now are on Zoom or on Google Meet right. It's rare that there's a lot of folks who are walking in the door and going to an office every day, but not as many in this ecosystem. So so many of us are on. Do we mostly just have to be concerned about the shirt that we're wearing or the blazer that we put on?
Janet Pak:Absolutely, and the biggest thing when you're on Zoom or Google Meet or on your online conferencing, is really to have a great shirt that fits well, like the tailoring. The fit is like the biggest piece. When you're on Zoom, you want to make, even though you can only see from the top to the chest down. It's a great opportunity to make an impact, and so you want to make sure that you know all the buttons are in place, nothing is sticking out or protruding and everything fits well and you're comfortable, because if anything feels like too tight or too loose and you're fidgeting the last, that's the last thing you want to worry about on Zoom.
Jason Ziekowitz:Sure.
Josh Matthews:Yeah.
Janet Pak:So you want to make sure you're comfortable and the shirts and the top or the top or the button down shirt you're wearing is appropriately fitted for your size.
Josh Matthews:Okay, and now this is going to sound real basic, but the recommendations I've always given people for interviews is it doesn't have to be expensive. You know you don't have to wear whatever a Gucci shirt and you don't have to shop, even going down from there. You don't have to have a shopping J Crew. You know you can find good deals if you're still kind of up and coming and money your price conscious. Going to J Crew might be too expensive for you. Can you buy a shirt off the rack If you know? Can you buy a shirt off the rack and have it tailored? Or do you recommend one of these online measure yourself? We're going to sew it in Vietnam and ship it to you in two weeks kind of shops that exist online now.
Janet Pak:Josh, that's absolutely a great point. You don't have to spend over the top for a simple professional top or dress shirt. Something off the rack is very much accessible to everyone. A Gap or a Banana Republic, a unique, low everyday stores Doesn't even have to be a well-named brand. Like you could go to Walmart and still buy a nice tailored shirt. But it's more important just to make sure that whichever shirt you buy, that it fits. The fit is the most important piece, because if the buttons are protruding out or it looks like it's too tight or too small, then you're going to embarrass yourself on. You're going to feel really awkward.
Josh Matthews:You're going to feel uncomfortable.
Janet Pak:You're going to feel really uncomfortable and I don't recommend people have to spend. Go to these online made to measure ones starting out. If you're just starting out and getting a feel for, like where you are in your professional career and you're starting out small, start out small. Start out very simple. Like you know, walmart, or your you know Whole Foods, has a lot of great dress shirts nowadays.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I wore a shirt made of cheese from there once. It was really a fantastic party. So you can get all sorts of cool styles.
Janet Pak:And they're very well made and they're very affordable.
Josh Matthews:Not a single lap on this silly podcast of ours.
Janet Pak:A cheese, yes.
Josh Matthews:I was trying to do my Lady Gaga meat dress, but, ok, all right. So tell me now, like what? About people who want to express themselves? Like, what are some do's and don'ts? And I guess we're still kind of this is genderless here, this question? Some people really want to express themselves through their clothing, through their style, but let's face it, not everyone's personal style necessarily reflects the career trajectory that they want to go in. So how does someone self assess that? Hey, maybe it's over the top, or maybe it's too much, or maybe it's, you know, maybe you need to accessorize, like I heard a tip a long time ago which was ladies, you know, don't accessorize as much, and men accessorize just a little bit more. I mean, what do you think about that? Do you find that to be universally, overwhelmingly the case?
Janet Pak:I find that the less, the less accessories and the less you, the less accessories and the less over the top personal style you bring, it's better, it's, it still makes an impact, it still has resonates with people. For, for women, I recommend only you know something very, very like either we talked you guys, you, you and your guests, you and your other panelists host, talked about this on the live recording about bringing a little bit like an accessory, like an earring that's colorful or something that's very representative of who you are, or something I tell a lot of women If they don't, they're not really into accessories is to wear like a small pin that represents who they are like, maybe something related to technology or something that they're involved in.
Josh Matthews:Sure, yeah, I, every night, before I go to bed, I put on my vest and put on my Salesforce pin, you know. So, like that's, that's a regular. What show is that? Oh yeah, schitt's Creek. So I couldn't help myself.
Josh Matthews:What about, you know, I found for myself because I've got long arms right and so I found that there's a couple of different places that I I like to shop regularly because I don't need to worry about the length anymore, because it's sunny Florida and almost all of my shirts magically don't have any sleeves, or at least they stop at the shoulder. So but I found, you know, for my sort of everyday casual wear, mountain hardware was my go-to spot because it's climbing gear and climbers have to reach up and they want to cover more of your arm when you're reaching, and so it covered my long arms right and I found that I can get off the rack at J Crew and like I don't even have to take it in, it just, it just works. So, you know, is there a process someone can go through to kind of find their brand that fits their body type of thing? People prefer a certain shoe company because these, this pair, runs wide and that's good for me, like that kind of a thing.
Janet Pak:There are definitely certain brands that cater more to people who are tall and tall and slim and others that have maybe more curvy or sizers or more like more curves or more hips. And so I recommend, like people really, before they even start looking to find which brands it's to look for, they really take their own measurements and get an assessment and look in the mirror and kind of like trace their own body type and visualize their own bodies, like assess, like are they have, or how long their arms are, how long, how tall they are and how things fit, and then start looking at like brands that specifically cater to those types of fits and height and sizes. Okay, and what about for the women?
Josh Matthews:in our audience. You talked a little bit about men's shirts, like some like keep it simple, try to have it tailored or at least fit your body. So great advice. What would you share with our female audience? For females, for my female audience, I would also recommend something similar but also with women.
Janet Pak:for females, you have a lot more options, and so, whether you're choosing to wear a button down shirt or you're choosing to wear like a colorful like blouse or something like that you're choosing to wear like a colorful like blouse it still comes down to the fit, because the fit is everything. If it's too big, if it's too small, you're going to feel awkward, going to be fencing with it. You're going to be spending all this time trying to adjust it and make it work. So for the female, I'd recommend also the same exact, the same principle. It's like the fit. It comes down to it. How does it fit? How does it feel? Can you move your arms comfortably? Do you feel like something is sticking out in the middle of your chest, or does it feel like the sleeves are gaping at your shoulders? So doing the whole fit test and trying out different scenarios when you're sitting down or standing or speaking really gives you an idea if that's a great top to wear for work or for Zoom meetings.
Josh Matthews:Okay, that makes sense. Now, I was a big fan of this Tim Gunn show, which he'd just go in and raid someone's closet and throw away 10 grand worth of their clothing because it just wasn't fitting what they wanted for their future, and then he'd just help them shop for like 10 basics. What are some of the basics that you think men and women should have in their wardrobe? Just sort of the wardrobe essentials. So, as someone is looking at really rebuilding their wardrobe, this is a good place to start. So we talk shirts Okay, great, so I don't get up every day and only put on a shirt. So what other articles make sense for someone to, if they're going to curate a new wardrobe from scratch? What are some of those items that everyone would want to have?
Janet Pak:Some other great basics that everyone can have, regardless of gender, are t-shirts like a nice white t-shirt or a nice white t-shirt or another colored t-shirt, because you can add on to it. You can accessorize depending on your role. If there are more individual contributor role, you can add some accessories to the t-shirt. Or if you're just a guy, you can just wear a nice fitted t-shirt on a Zoom conference call and still look presentable. So t-shirts are really great. And comfortable pants it's depending on if you're working at home and still going to the office. Having that combination, choosing comfortable, the in-between trouser and athleisure affordable pants For men.
Josh Matthews:it'd be some sort of golf pant, something that's breathable but still looks crisp. Yeah, something flexible.
Janet Pak:Yes, that's a trouser pant and there's a lot of those for women too. There's a lot of versatile pants that are more like. There are a lot of versatile pants that are for women, that can convert into athleisure, to workwear, that are pockets, that have belt loops looks more formal but also very comfortable in life or active wear like yoga or other sorts of activities.
Josh Matthews:Okay, all right, that makes sense. Now I hope it's okay if we just kind of switch here for a second, because I know that there are people in the world and I used to be one of them. There are people in the world that are really resistant. It can make them quite uncomfortable to wear clothing that's maybe not necessarily what you're describing, but maybe clothing that is a little bit more adventurous for them, something that really says like hey, this is me and it's sort of your uniform a little bit. What would you say to people who are really struggling to get out of jeans and a hoodie right, who want to elevate their career? The reason why I ask is in our ecosystem there's a lot of jeans and hoodies going on and there's nothing wrong with that, right, there's nothing wrong with that.
Josh Matthews:But what shocks me? This is the part that shocks me, and I'm not judging, but when I go to conferences this is your chance to meet 100 people, 200 people, 500 people, whatever it is I see only a small percentage of people who are actually. It looks like they thought about it. They realized I'm going to go meet a bunch of strangers and I'm going to be giving off first impressions to somewhere between 100 and 500 or 1,000 people, right? So we're going to Florida Dream in this weekend, right? We just came from Dreamforce last month and I'm shocked by what I see it's like.
Josh Matthews:This is a professional conference. It costs you thousands of dollars, or your company thousands of dollars. How much of this idea of, like, I'm a jeans and hoodie kind of person and because I want to relate to all of these other people in the ecosystem, how important is it to relate to that versus giving an impression to the other group of people that are like look, my career is growing and I'm climbing a ladder. Who's coming with me? Right? So what would you say to the like, when you think about conferences, how should someone you know, maybe in our ecosystem, in the tech community, does it matter? You know, if you're a developer and you're going to something, honestly, almost nobody cares, right. But do you think it matters, even on a subtle, subconscious level, that one person put a little bit more time and effort into their conference attire versus someone else who's like hey, this is me. If you don't like it, piss off.
Janet Pak:Absolutely it matters. Because you get one microsecond to make an impression at a conference and even though your role is much more casual, say much more like less customer facing as a developer, it's so important to show up like you you want to mean business, like you want to make an impact, that you are professional and that you're serious. Because the jeans and hoodie kind of convey this sort of less serious, like very sort of casual, low key kind of like maybe wishy washy I'm still a kid kind of impression. And so by just something, just like all, by just really taking it, by really making that small subtle switch the jeans and hoodie to maybe even just to dark washed, like a nice tailored, well fitted dark jeans.
Josh Matthews:Yeah.
Janet Pak:You know a nice button up short, still very simple and casual and still makes a great impression.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I'm going to share one quick comment and then we'll go to Peter and then we'll go to Janine. You have either comments or questions here. You know, look what we wear. We're signaling to others like this is who I am and if you're like me, come talk to me and feel comfortable with me. And I never experienced this to greater effect than in the early nineties. I was living in San Francisco and when I moved there I had long hair long curly hair and then I shaved my head.
Josh Matthews:I just skinned it and basically a crude cut for a while and it was incredible. Back then I was hanging out at the coffee shop, smoking cigarettes and drawing pictures. I was an art student so I did a lot of that a lot of coffee, a lot of ink, sketches and a lot of camel lights, to be honest. So as soon as I shaved my head, the people who would nod at me and fist, bump me on the street and say hi to me or come talk to me in the coffee shops immediately changed from the Rostas and the hippies to the metalheads and the punks overnight, just because I changed my haircut. No, I'm not saying I like most people, but I like all music really, and I don't care. I'm happy to hang out with punks, I'm happy to hang out with hippies, I'm happy to hang out with deadheads or people who love country music. None of that matters to me. But it seemed like it was really critical, this social signaling just based on your haircut.
Josh Matthews:I can only imagine that some of the folks who are going to these conferences, they choose the way they dress one because they want to feel comfortable. Okay, everybody gets that you can look nice and still be comfortable. I'm a big believer in that. But these are the people that they're trying to attract to them. So, for anyone who's listening right now, if you're trying to attract different people into your sphere, if you're trying to get recognition or have someone else be more open who's in leadership, or you're trying to get to leadership, it really starts to make sense to dress like a leader. So, peter Gonzo, let's go ahead with you.
Peter Ganza:I love where you're going with this, Josh. Remember what I was wearing at Life Sciences Dreaming.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, beautiful suit.
Peter Ganza:Beautiful suit and it's comfortable. I'm not a big pie guy. I wasn't going 100% formal, Regardless if you're, it doesn't matter if you're looking for work or anything like that. It's the first impression. I was comfortable and that made me confident and it was memorable. Right? People would compliment me on the shoes. Oh my gosh, Prada shoes. Anyway, long story short, Very nice shoes In a conference setting. I mean, Salesforce is unique and I've done the whole jeans and how do you think? That's totally fine. But if you really want to work on your brand for the long term, make an impression. Yeah, it doesn't hurt to dress up, as long as they're comfortable, especially when it comes to meeting new people. So that's my two cents.
Josh Matthews:I think those are good. Two cents and look, it's not a beauty contest, right? That's not what we're talking about here. You don't have to be gorgeous and you don't have to be super handsome, but you need to look clean, put together and you just need to look like you spent five minutes thinking about your choice based on where you're going. Right, Janine, go ahead.
Janeen Marquardt:Yeah, it's interesting. It's kind of a debate. There's a couple sides to this, so Josh is probably familiar with this, or anyone who's come to any of the dreaming events. This year I've been doing a panel called when your Career Outgrows the Hoodie and you Graduate to the Trail Blazer.
Janeen Marquardt:I love that when we take off our hoodies and we put on our blazers and where we're stepping up because we're mid-career and we're like, yeah, we're just a little bit too old, we're a little bit too advanced in our careers to keep wearing that hoodie around to professional meetings and we need to wear a blazer. But by the same token, as somebody who's going to something like Dreamforce or who's going to these conferences, yeah, it's not comfortable to wear a blazer around. And at Dreamforce you want your tennis shoes and still have blisters and problems in my feet and it's not comfortable to wear, at least as a woman.
Janeen Marquardt:I can't speak for men's clothes, but most of women's clothes, even my blue jeans, are not the most comfortable pair of clothing that I've got to wear and in fact, this is ongoing debate with my husband and I. His comfortable clothes, the things he hangs around the house in is blue jeans. Me it's the sweatpants, it's the soft pants, and so the fact that I'm putting on jeans and going out of the house, that is my dress up clothes. Frankly, they do not make women's clothes comfortable. And if I'm even showing up in clothes, frankly I'm dressed up and so, even though I am-.
Josh Matthews:But we appreciate you putting on clothes. That's always-. Thank you, I thought you'd like that yeah. Thank you yeah.
Janeen Marquardt:Definitely step up. I'm dressed, I'm standing upright, I'm out of the house. So that's definitely an improvement over the last few years.
Josh Matthews:Yeah.
Janeen Marquardt:This is a really tough challenge for me, because I'm definitely a very casual person. I don't wear makeup. And so I feel like I want to show up. I want to show them a professional and I want to show them a put together. I want to show them 12, 16 hour days on my feet, whether it's a conference or some other something or another. I'm allergic to eye makeup and things. Like you know. It's going to be black circles around my eyes later. Like this doesn't seem like the way for me to go up. Sure.
Josh Matthews:Let's get Janet's perspective on this yeah, yeah. And you know my two senses. You can find comfortable clothes. You just have to go shopping. You got to maybe shop longer than you might not like shopping, right?
Janeen Marquardt:So there's that too. Have you ever been a woman?
Josh Matthews:Not, lately Not lately. Not this life.
Janet Pak:Yeah, Go ahead.
Josh Matthews:Janet.
Janet Pak:I really can understand, and a lot of my clients can relate to what Janine is saying, that women's clothes can be uncomfortable. They're hard, they're not cut like jeans, they're really stiff and you may not like to wear makeup because you're allergic to some of the ingredients in there. I had a, so I worked with a woman. She was a developer and she did not like jeans either, but she wanted to look more professional and look more accessible, and there are actually a lot of brands like a lot of more like softer fabrics um, gap and a lot of them more mainstream mall brands like Unique Well, they make a lot of trousers and denim that are more softer and they're not very stiff and structured.
Janet Pak:They're like more trouser jeans. Um, like Everlane and Gap make a lot of those sort of like more softer trouser pants and more sustainable, lighter fabrics and like Tencel and Bamboo. They're really really comfortable and super soft and they look great as well. So something to consider also is looking for a softer, more sustainable fabrics that might be more comfortable and easy to move around in, especially when you're on your feet, for like 16, 10 hour down, 10 hour days at conferences running around Um, that's really important.
Josh Matthews:So jeans alternatives right. Like I don't like to wear jeans, like I like they fit great the moment I put them on and three hours later they're around my ankles yeah, Like they just stretch out, which means that I got to wear a big, chunky belt which my digs into my belly.
Josh Matthews:Like, so I I'm not a fan you know, but so yeah, I like what you're talking about here, some just all alternatives. There's also this thing of just kind of getting used to it. Right, if you can find the right clothes, then you get used to it. You know, I like I had to wear a suit for years and it didn't bother me, like it, just it didn't bother me. It was as comfortable as almost anything else. I wore, um, as long as I got to take off my sport coat most of the day, roll my sleeves up, you know, cool off cause I run a little hot. Go ahead, peter.
Peter Ganza:So I just wanted to chime in on something Jeanine said. You know, for dream force I'm, I made the mistake I think it was my first dream force of, you know, wearing the suit and dress shoes. Oh my gosh, what a mistake, right? Um, if and I tell my clients this, I actually I just did an article with a partner about this If you're not, you know, presenting, if you're not, uh, you know, necessarily meaning a client or a prospect, running shoes, no question, I like, at least for, uh, you know, for men, mostly, right, because you're going to be standing right and you know you were just there, right, you're going to be standing most of the day for the dreaming events. Um, it's obviously a little different, right, you're going to be sitting down quite a bit. You're not going to be standing on your feet. So I just want to call out that, uh, that little detail.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, that makes sense and they're making. I don't know if they might be making these for women, I wouldn't know, but I recently picked up a nice pair of I don't know what they are colhons or something like that, but it's really like an athletic soul right With a leather upper. They look like it's like a party in the front, business in the front party. In the back it's basically a mullet shoe right. It's business up top and at the bottom it's a party because it's cushy and comfortable. Go ahead, janet.
Janet Pak:I also wanted to address what Janine had mentioned about the makeup. A lot of women, like I mentioned earlier, may have certain allergies or skin allergies towards makeup, but they don't like wearing like lots of eye makeup. And something that's really really simple that women can do or men can do also just brighten their skin and brighten their appearance. It's just to wear like a light tinted moisturizer. It has a little bit of color, it has a little bit of a glow and it doesn't need to be over the top. Just a little bit of brightness really illuminates your appearance Okay great, Janine.
Josh Matthews:I know you've got your hand up, but I know Janet's got some more stuff to cover. So, if it's quick, go ahead and pipe up. Otherwise we'll come back to you in just a little bit. Okay, Janet, go ahead and keep going. More advice more recommendations.
Janet Pak:And also in going back to the makeup part, you don't have to wear. You don't want to be wearing like loads of eyeliner or mascara. You just you know, and every day to make a really great impact, it really just a tinted moisturizer does wonders for everyone, men and women. It just makes you glow, it makes you shine, it makes you. There's no need for eyeshadow or anything extra, just a simple tinted moisturizer works very well for all occasions.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, yeah, for the makeup of averse, yes, okay.
Janet Pak:And what you're saying about the shoe is really important too. Like that, you mentioned that you bought a Cole Hawn with an athletic sole athletic, you know, sole A lot of firm women and men like. Buying a really solid, well-fitted pair of shoes with a little bit of cushioning is really comfortable when you're on your feet, especially at conferences, going from conferences or you're speaking or you're going from desk to desk at the office or floor to floor at the office really works wonders and makes you feel so comfortable in light.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, and I'll tell you so. I'm shoeless Joe over here. I don't wear shoes. I go to restaurants without shoes and you know my feet aren't gross, they're really nice. But, janine, you know to your point. I mean, I got these really comfy shoes, didn't matter. I still have a black and blue big toe right foot right now from Dreamforce. So it's not always, you know, it's just, and let's face it, san Francisco is hilly, so go ahead. Janine, I want to come back to you. I think you had your hand up for some time.
Janeen Marquardt:Yeah, no, I was just one of the other things too. I think that this is a female challenge, probably because I know my husband and I struggle with this all the time. He gets on the scale of, oh, I put on a pound and I'm like, yeah, there's another 10 pounds for you. I mean, my weight fluctuates a lot and I've got clothing in every size, and so the pants that may seem like they're really comfortable today, tomorrow might not be as comfortable, and so I think that that's another challenge that we face.
Janeen Marquardt:Especially for women of a certain age, it's really difficult to keep the clothing comfortable. I mean, josh, you said later in the day that the jeans around your ankles have that problem too. So it might be comfortable standing, it might be not as comfortable for sitting all day, and so it's like women face very, very different challenges with what's comfortable clothing for what situation? I mean, if I'm going to stand all day, some clothes are fine. If I'm going to sit all day, some clothes, other clothes are fine. If I'm doing both, I'm in trouble. What do I wear? I mean, this is like these are really real problems and they're really silly.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, no, yeah, no, that makes sense. So, janet, you know Jeanine's got a really great point. There are a lot of people in this world who can fluctuate 10 pounds in a week, right, and so what do they do? Where should they go? How do they address it? And you're the guest, so you don't have to raise your hand, but thank you for being polite.
Janet Pak:Okay, thank you for that. I wanted to address Jeanine's concern about women's sizes fluctuating and finding comfortable clothes and how to adapt to that. I recommend a lot of when you're shopping to look for pants. There are a lot of pants that are softer and that have stretch and they're more comfortable versus like more structured, stiff fabrics like traditional khakis or chinos or like dress pants. So, looking for something that's got some stretch, especially at the waist. There's a lot of trousers a lot of clothing manufacturers are making like dress pants that have an elastic stretch waistband, that look like regular pants as well, but they have a little bit of an extra stretch. So finding something with that little extra give gives you a little bit more room to wiggle and move and work with as things fluctuate up and down.
Josh Matthews:And are there brands that come to mind so people don't have to go to five department stores and spend three days figuring this out?
Janet Pak:Absolutely. Everlane and Gap I really recommend. A lot of people are a lot of people under look the opportunity that a lot of mainstream brands like Gap and Old Navy and Banana Republic offer. A lot of those brands have a lot of softer, stretchy fabric pants or skirts, especially with like stretchy waistbands that really give you like room to wiggle so it doesn't feel like it's digging into your sides or your waist or your belly.
Josh Matthews:Okay, let me. Let me, let's do an M&M cleaning out my closet segment here. So there are times, I think, when a lot of people whether it's like you're looking at your book collection, your library, and you're like I got to get rid of those, or you're looking at your closet, someone who's right now, who's listening to this I'm sure there's someone listening to this that's like you know what? I'm ready, I'm going to just like I'm going to go to town on my closet. I mean, it's sort of like having old food in the fridge, isn't it? It's one of clogs everything up, it clutters everything up, and then it makes it harder to choose right Chinese menu stuff, right, 10 pages, and you know five of them aren't good because they haven't made any of those dishes in four years. So what do you recommend? What's sort of the process that you recommend for someone who is ready to go? Go M&M their closet?
Janet Pak:for someone who's ready to Go full on out with the closet.
Josh Matthews:Yeah they're ready to, like, get rid of the old stuff. So, like you know, like, okay, find things that are missing buttons, find things that are, you know, unless it's a classic piece, more than seven years old, or whatever like. What's the advice that you get?
Janet Pak:first, I recommend everyone just a lot of. First, everyone should take a look at the closet and see if there's anything hanging with tags. I mean, a lot of us are probably some of a lot. A lot of people are guilty of just keeping things around that are brand new, with tags that they have never worn in Months or over a year. Start with things that they've never, that they are still brand new, with the tags that are hanging in your closet.
Janet Pak:Pull those out and ask yourself like do I need this? Do I need this for work, or why am I not wearing it? Start with those items with brand new, with tags, and then start with the ones going through and taking an assessment of what needs to be tailored, what needs to be dry clean, what needs, like, a refresh. Just so simple tips. They're so simple, like TLC. Things can really make a huge difference in your wardrobe without having to go all out and buy a Whole brand new set, because sometimes it's just like going to the dry cleaners and giving it a refresh, getting like giving that, like you know, sort of like faded out white, or giving that, you know, sort of faded black or another sort of piece that needs a touch up a dry cleaning session.
Janet Pak:Shave your sweaters shave your sweaters, fix the holes on the. Fix your holes. Don't have holes gaping on your tops and your shirts. Anything has full holes. Fix those and or like missing buttons, especially missing buttons. Sure, yeah, no this is loose, but especially loose buttons. There are a lot of people like you know a simple like getting those buttons like redialed in Can really touch up that shirt incredibly well.
Josh Matthews:Excellent. Hey, we're joined by Vanessa Grant. Welcome to your show, vanessa, and we're glad that you could join us. How you doing?
Vanessa Grant:I'm good. I'm hoping I'm not trying to hang out for, but I wanted to check in and say hi, new job is definitely. You know, I'm traveling today so I'm tired. I've been up since 3 30 am.
Josh Matthews:Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. So yeah, you're drinking from the fire hose and Look, we've been having this discussion. Yeah, you know there's some risk of maybe needing to cover something that we've already covered, but that's okay, we can always edit this. So is there a question that you have for Janet around style and dressing for success?
Vanessa Grant:Oh, what's a comfortable heel that you can wear all day there you go, good question.
Janet Pak:That's a great question. I like a low, like a meal. The meals are very comfortable. They have a very tiny little kitten heels, like maybe a half an inch, and those are really comfortable. They're not too high and they're not too low. Gives you a little bit of height and makes you feel very sophisticated and polished and professional is there any sort of brand?
Vanessa Grant:because I I Am bad and tend to just kind of I don't know, maybe it's not bad, but I always tend to lead into the the pay less than the DSW side. But if there's like a specific brand of just like an everyday heel, that that I could wear, that's, that's always what I I tend to go for, because I always feel like a heel kind of gives that little level of authority, especially as a woman in tech, but it's, it's. I don't know that I have like a go-to yet.
Janet Pak:There are actually a lot of go-to brands like the naturalizer or a lot of. Cole Hawn has the Nike air Cushioning depending on like you're willing, your budget level. Like the naturalizer is a great like everyday sort of brand that has the soft little like cushioning. And also, like I mentioned earlier, the Cole Hawn has a Nike air that makes you feel like you're walking on clouds. It's like air.
Josh Matthews:You're like floating on clouds next year, right on now we've got Kadir Raju is requesting to speak and I'm struggling. My friend, it's not working, I don't know why, but if you do have a question right now, go ahead and just you can direct message Peter Ganza. Just tap on his profile on your phone and send him the question or the comment and he'll be happy to speak on your behalf. We have Mr Jason Zika, which has just joined us. Nice to see you, jason. Go ahead your life. Thank you, mr.
Jason Ziekowitz:Josh Matthews and miss Vanessa Grant. I want to bring in a suggestion, kind of out of left field, because it's not something for as far as like a comfortable heel, that my wife wind up buying in 2015 Crocs that are beautiful, like platform Heels, so their platform. She's tall, they're slightly elevated in the heel area, so they give her that like pump there, but their crocs are the super comfortable and they are stylists. So here's the deal she got these crocs in 2015.
Jason Ziekowitz:I've not seen the same style of this version of the crocs since and I think it's a shame. Like I think maybe they underpaid the person. They fired the person, that designer, because you don't know their crocs by looking at them. But what like the, the, the sole part of it. You know the feeling that's the crocs and the walking on it is the crocs, but just the look of it. They look like a great shoe. She wears them all the time we're going to the mall, so, so just keep your eye out for crocs every now and then. You know they might have some good style and those are like you know that platform Right heel. Yeah, yeah, good point.
Josh Matthews:I, if I'm not barefoot- I'm in my crocs, my baby blues that my son Olly gave me for Christmas. I love those things Right on. All right, janet, what else? We've got a little bit more time here. I'm just gonna do a real quick Catch up if people are just joining us or here in the middle of the show, because we've got a few more folks who've come on. We're talking to Janet Pack. Janet has five years of experience as a stylist, a professional stylist for people who want to Accelerate their career or their personal lives by dressing a little bit sharper, and so it's great to have you here.
Josh Matthews:My name, which I never I can you guys know my name If you're listening to this for the first time. My name is Josh Matthews and I do run the sales force recruiter com Along with my awesome crew. We've got two of them on here today Stephen Gregor and Jesse Twazan. So if you want to connect with some smart folks here in the ecosystem who are badass recruiters, make sure you connect with Stephen and with Jesse.
Josh Matthews:We have a number of job openings right now that I'll just plug very quickly. We have a I'd say it's a mid-level to senior level business analyst role. It's a fully remote position, working for a leader in their trade, and by trade I mean it's in the construction trade. They have over a thousand employees and they've got a brand new sales force ecosystem that launched about 12, 13 months ago. They need someone who can communicate With all of the different, various departments and make sense of what their needs are and translate those Needs into requirements that can be developed by the rest of the crew. We also have a senior admin Opening a sort of a mid-level Salesforce administrator position. It's idea that, look, the advanced admin is going to need to know field service. So if you don't know, please don't apply to that role. But there is another, another opportunity that does not require it and it's sort of a nice vanilla Standard Salesforce admin role for a large trade company. And then we've also got one or two solution architectures. We've got one or two solution architect openings as well for a small partner that does a lot of work in the global entertainment industry.
Josh Matthews:So Go ahead and check out the sales force recruiter comm. It's a brand new website. Almost all the kinks are worked out of it, which is great, and you can also find additional resources, such as by such as blablabla, by clicking on insights, and that's where we've got our videos and our blogs and articles. You can also find our podcasts there. And then we have the expand exchange, where you can identify Very easily based on whether you're an architect or in the military. You know you're looking for videos and podcasts or blogs, like you can find whatever you want to level up your knowledge by following some of these very intelligent contributors to the ecosystem. On expand exchange, that's on my website, but it's all. You can also just go to expand exchangecom and you can check that out.
Josh Matthews:Okay, back to the little chat here. So, janet, we've covered a lot of things. We talked about cleaning out your closet. We talked about how to look good on zoom for men and women, comfortable shoes, attire for Conferences. Let's talk a little bit more, if we can, about the psychological aspect of you know Like you are what you wear right. And I'll just tell I mentioned this when when we had a quick chat at the podcast from dreamforce.
Josh Matthews:But I went through this experience where I showed up to work, I wore my suit for the interview and that was the last day I wore a full suit for a long time. I kicked butt. I did really well for a while. People made fun of fun of me for the clothes I wore, because I just bike to work in these plaid pants and people complained about my you know my clothes. I just say, well, look at my numbers and leave me alone. So you know you can do. You think people can get away with more when they're, when they're Proving to the people in their office or in their environment that they're, they're quite successful. Someone who I've mentioned I think are the last two podcasts that comes to mind is alex wormose, who always wears socks, crocs and gym shorts, right? So, um, no, I don't have a hundred million dollars in the bank like alex does, but do you think it matters? Like, can people get to a point in their career where you just get to wear whatever you want and it doesn't matter?
Janet Pak:I absolutely think that you have to. You have to earn that, that you have to earn that aspect of being aware of whatever you want. You cannot just on day one as a new person in a new company or as a new hire, show up in shorts and a t-shirt and sandals. You just came from the beach. You want to still make a great first impression on your first day, or wherever you are. Take some time to really earn those stripes and earn the respect of your peers and your leaders, be able to eventually be more casual, be much more relaxed in the way you show up.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, Look, style changes. I mean, when I was 20 years ago, everyone was in suits. Even on the West Coast, we wore a suit to work Absolutely Period. Then they got rid of the tie and then they got rid of the suit in exchange for a blazer, and they got rid of the blazer. Now I don't even know what people wear anymore, but it's definitely. Everything's become over time, more and more casual. It's going to depend on your industry. You could be a Salesforce developer working in an office, but if you're going to a bank, you might not need to wear a three-piece suit like a banker from 1983. But you probably need to dress a little bit sharper. There's some sort of dress code going on versus the startup that is trying to whatever invented better way to do beer pong. What do you think about the idea that it's really important to dress for the role that you want versus the role that you're in?
Janet Pak:This is a great question, because you have to embody the person that you're becoming in order to have the role. If you show up as if you're the developer and you want to be the leader, the director or the manager, but you're still seen in jeans and hoodie, no one's going to take you seriously. You have to show people that you are ready for that role. It's not just show people, and not to show people by speaking up and developing those communication skills and those leadership skills, but also in the way you present yourself. You want to show people that you're the person that they are choosing for that role.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, it really depends. I mean, if you're in a company of six people and the CEO is wearing jeans and hoodies, I don't think you have to change a damn thing. But if you're working for a company of size that's interacting, engaging with clients that are in the financial world and banking and services world and professional services probably going to be a little bit different because you're going to be engaging with people on a regular basis on video or in person. So you got to dress up for that. We're going to be laughing.
Janet Pak:Can I share a quick example?
Josh Matthews:Of course, please.
Janet Pak:A success story of the woman I worked with. This woman was extremely talented, extremely capable. She had been in the same data analyst role for about five years. She had got really great marks. She was phenomenal. She was always looking to improve, so her performance at work was skyrocketing. But she had wanted to start to take on a more leadership, manager-facing role and she had been stuck in the same role for five years. But she was missing something. She realized okay, I'm doing all the right things, I'm speaking up and many people know I want to apply for this new role in a manager role. My performance reviews are great, but I'm missing something.
Janet Pak:People couldn't see her. People didn't know that she wanted to be the manager. She was always wearing black, brown, gray colored clothing, very subdued, muted colors. No one could see her because her clothes were always very subdued and muted. She realized that she needed to show people that she wanted to be the manager. She started to incorporate things that were important to her, like color and wearing orange and greens and not over the top, bringing in aspects of those colors in a top or an accessory, brightening up her look, making herself known that she was going to be the leader. Running that manager role really made it clear to people that she was the one they should interview. Over the course of a year working on her style and embodying that manager aesthetic that she felt was important, she became the manager of that role of that department. It was a work in progress. It took over a year to get there but by gradually incorporating and letting people know that she wanted to be seen and she was the one for that role, it really made a difference.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, that's critical. Look, I did that. I just told you this little story. The guy who showed up sweaty from riding my fixed gear bike to the office building downtown wearing plaid pants, and then it's like, oh, there's going to be an opening. Trust me, I throw in my suits every single day. It's like I'm not going to leave it to chance, I'm just going to cover all bases. And I think it's important to know look people, when you get hired, you're not getting hired because of your clothes. You're getting hired because you didn't mess up your clothes. You see what I mean.
Josh Matthews:It's not the everything to your career, the quality of your work, the ability to communicate, the ability to have successes, to have specific accomplishments and, most importantly, as a leader and as a manager, you help other people Period. You help others succeed and that's how you level up. But what you don't want to do is leave everything to chance, because you can do all that stuff and still get overlooked per Janet's story, just here, right now. So again, this isn't the end, all be all. And if you don't like your wardrobe, it doesn't mean you've got no chance at that role that you're gunning for. It just doesn't mean that at all. But it definitely can remove it. It's sort of like doing a spell check on your email. Everything you say in your email might make perfect sense, but maybe you want to spell check it before you click send. Right, it's the same idea, it's just clean it up. Clean up the presentation a little bit, would you say. That's pretty accurate, janet, in your experience.
Janet Pak:Absolutely Details, details, details. Taking that extra few seconds, just like when you show up to work, you want to make sure all the buttons are there and everything else. Similarly, same with your communication, same with your emails and same with your work. Taking that extra few seconds to double check everything makes a huge difference.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, tell me. I want to go back to this psychological aspect of this Now. We talked about, OK, dress a little sharper and produce your confidence, this sort of thing. But again, there are folks out there that are so resistant. They'll have a million and one reasons why they shouldn't. It makes them uncomfortable, and there's just this general resistance. I'm sure you've worked with folks like this. They were brave enough to pick up the phone or to go to your website and schedule an appointment, but then you're working with them. I'm imagining that not every client that you have had has necessarily been easy. That'd be correct.
Janet Pak:That's absolutely correct.
Josh Matthews:So then, janet, what are the top two or three fears, challenges you name it that you must help your clients break through for them to actually have success in this aspect of their life.
Janet Pak:The fear that it attracts too much attention. The fear that they are putting that they care more about their appearances than their work.
Janet Pak:Got it Okay so you're one of the biggest pieces because the last thing you want to tell people is like oh, suddenly I show up looking like you just did 180 degrees from yesterday, from the last week. You're wearing like shorts and a t-shirt, or like jeans and a hoodie, and then suddenly you're wearing a three piece suit. It doesn't have to be that dramatic of a change. It's going to be much more gradual. So does it seem like you just morphed into someone completely different overnight?
Josh Matthews:That's right, yes, yeah. So trade the hoodie for a pinstripe suit top, one piece at a time.
Janet Pak:Very slowly.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, and so what do you say to these folks? I mean, okay, those are the fears, you've identified them. How do they get over it?
Janet Pak:You have to start small, like I worked with. Like you have to start small, like the fear that you care more about your clothes than your work. Right, that's really just a psychological fear. If you're just showing up making a one small change over the course of a year, it's not going to look like overnight you did a 1A. It's going to look like you really care and you're trying to make gradual, small improvements, just like in your work.
Josh Matthews:Yeah.
Janet Pak:But a year's a long time, yeah.
Josh Matthews:I mean, what's wrong with just slamming that TNT handle down like Wiley Coyote and just blowing it up and just like you know what's up, fools knew me deal with it.
Janet Pak:Like what's wrong with that, Because you're not ready for it. No one's ready for that dramatic change overnight and it's going to feel very awkward and you're going to spend more time in your head and worrying about your clothes and what you were wanting to run home or wanting to make a quick change at the last minute. Then you are feeling ready to go and ready to like hit the nail on the wall at work.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, yeah, but you can do this if you switch jobs, right, you can be like, okay, I'm leaving this job, I'm going to a new job and I'm going to walk in there and I'm just they'll never know. They'll never know how much I love my hoodie, right, they'll never know. So, it's not a bad idea to build up your wardrobe a little bit before you're changing jobs. If that's what you're attempting to do, if you're trying to elevate it, a new company.
Janet Pak:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Josh Matthews:Janet, this has been a really wonderful hour and it's been a real departure from our typical. I mean, it's same format but our typical subject matter. I hope that our audience really enjoys this episode and if they have other questions or if they're actually interested in saying like look, I can't do this on my own, I really need some help and I'm not interested in doing stitch fix right. So how can they reach you and what's the name of your website? Just give them some contact info here.
Janet Pak:I'd love to connect with more of you and learn more about your challenges and how making this transformation can really level up your personal professional goals. The best way to reach me is through my website, stylebyjannettcom, or send me an email. Jannett at stylebyjannettcom, also on Instagram and LinkedIn under stylebyjannett on Instagram and I'm Jannett Pack on LinkedIn.
Josh Matthews:Thank you, jannett. That's Pack, pak, yeah, pak, yes, yes. I'm sure some people are thinking right now like, oh, I want to reach out to her, but I don't have a lot of money for new clothes, much less for my own stylist. Without sharing those numbers, is it expensive to have your own stylist or is it just a worthy investment for that advancement in your career that you're desiring?
Janet Pak:It's an investment, like you invest in your career, the tools, the education, the learning, going to conferences. It's an investment that you make and the investment is one that you can tap into. Once we've worked together the investment, you have the foundation and the knowledge and the tools to continue to tap into those when you get stuck or when you change jobs or you go through another change in career or maybe do something different, to continue to re-tap into those tools on your own.
Josh Matthews:Sure, look, I paid someone a bunch of money to do my resume 20 years ago. After that, all I had to do was just make some tweaks right, because the general form was there. Last question of the show and then I've got a quick announcement about what's coming up in the future here on the Salesforce career show and in general. Last question is do you have a favorite style show or fashion show that you really enjoy and has even helped you, despite the fact that you're educated in this field and you've got a lot of experiences? Is there one out there that you enjoy and recommend?
Janet Pak:I love the Netflix show with Tan France and Alexa Chung, where the designers are challenged to come up with a collection on the spot in a very short amount of time. You can really see that creativity and that enthusiasm and being able to like. It's the same thing you would do with yourself. You're suddenly given an opportunity to interview for an amazing role. How do you reinvent yourself in a very short amount of time?
Josh Matthews:Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, I already have my own personal stylist, casey Ballissa, and she is the most fashionable woman I have ever met in my entire life or ever seen. I'm pretty lucky, but if you're not as lucky as me, reach out to Janet Packet, stylebyjannettcom. Now for a quick announcement. I will be at Florida Dreaming starting this weekend. It starts on Sunday. It goes till Tuesday. If you're going, I'd love to get a chance to say hi Now.
Josh Matthews:This episode is not going to release until next week, but if you're on the live show or you're listening to it on X Spaces before then and you're going, definitely come up, introduce yourself. I'm happy to shake hands and say hi. I'll be running a session. It's called Negotiating Skills for Salesforce Professionals. That's going to be Tuesday morning around 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm really looking forward to having an episode, probably in about a month, where I'll cover a lot of the material that I cover in the session. We actually have another session that's coming up. I want to say it's on November 15th. Janine, if you're still online, go ahead and unmute for a second. And, chair, I think Mr Dressfield is going to be there. You're going to be on the show. I will not be available for the show. It will be run exclusively by Vanessa Grant on November 15th, as it turns out.
Janeen Marquardt:before you say that we might be having a scheduling problem ourselves. As it turns out, we're having some scheduling difficulties, so it might not be November 15th. We may have to defer until 2024 because lots of world tours. As it turns out, Eric's granddaughter decided that November 15th was the day she had to get married.
Josh Matthews:Oh, okay. Well, that makes a lot of sense. Congratulations to Eric Dressfield's granddaughter and look, we'll be back with more exciting and interesting guests, including a fellow named Matt Abrams I think it's pronounced Abrams and Matt is a professor in the Graduate School of Business at Stanford. He's written a couple books. One of them is Think Faster, talk Smarter, and he's going to be joining us, I'm hoping, at some point in November. It's probably going to be a recorded podcast, not a live show, but very interested in having a conversation with him and if it sounds I mean the title's interesting enough. I'm only about a quarter through the book right now myself. Again, it's Think Faster, talk Smarter by Matt Abrams, and you can get the audio book. I like audio books. He does the speaking, of course, because he's the communications expert and he's got a great voice and great subject matter. So check him out and stay tuned for more wonderful episodes from our show.
Josh Matthews:Thank you everybody, especially Janet, for joining us today. This has been a really unique, special episode. Can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy day. Thank you to Peter Gonza, to Jason Zeichwitz, to Janine and, of course, for my team for showing up here. It's great to see some wonderful people like Mr Larry Lee. Larry, throw me a purple heart here real quick. If I'm going to see you in a few days, I hope you get to get down to Florida Dream Because you're just a sweetheart of a guy who loves spending time with you, so I hope that you're going to be there. I'm going to see a lot of old friends at Florida Dream. Thank you everybody. Here comes the outro music and off we go. You guys have a wonderful, wonderful week. I'll see you soon.