Let's imagine you are standing at the gateway of the Salesforce industry, but you have no experience or background in it. Sounds scary, isn't it? Fear not, as this episode has Jordan Nelson, a veteran in the Salesforce industry, spilling the secrets to breaking into this swelling business, with no prior experience required. Nelson underscores the necessity of developing a social proof like a website or content that showcases your knowledge even before you step into an interview. Drawing inspiration from Amazon's product advertising strategies, he encourages you on how to sell your skills online.
But what if you're seeking to transition into the Salesforce industry? Anthony, another guest in this episode, unveils his riveting journey of breaking into the ecosystem. He shares how optimizing your LinkedIn profile, conducting comprehensive job research, and forming genuine connections within the Salesforce community can be valuable. Further, we probe the benefits of tailoring a job hunt program with a professional and the need for a razor-sharp focus on opportunities.
Social media, often a double-edged sword, can be your best ally if used wisely. In this episode, we tap into the essence of being genuine on social platforms and how it aids in establishing your footprint in the Salesforce industry. We discuss the 'secret sauce' behind successful content creators and why developing resilience towards criticisms is a crucial life skill. Josh and Vanessa, our guests, emphasize the importance of consistency and learning from failures for success in the digital space. They also touch on the different career paths in the Salesforce ecosystem, the importance of taking risks, and not overthinking career decisions. Let's tune in, extract the wisdom, and plunge into the vibrant world of Salesforce!
Let's imagine you are standing at the gateway of the Salesforce industry, but you have no experience or background in it. Sounds scary, isn't it? Fear not, as this episode has Jordan Nelson, a veteran in the Salesforce industry, spilling the secrets to breaking into this swelling business, with no prior experience required. Nelson underscores the necessity of developing a social proof like a website or content that showcases your knowledge even before you step into an interview. Drawing inspiration from Amazon's product advertising strategies, he encourages you on how to sell your skills online.
But what if you're seeking to transition into the Salesforce industry? Anthony, another guest in this episode, unveils his riveting journey of breaking into the ecosystem. He shares how optimizing your LinkedIn profile, conducting comprehensive job research, and forming genuine connections within the Salesforce community can be valuable. Further, we probe the benefits of tailoring a job hunt program with a professional and the need for a razor-sharp focus on opportunities.
Social media, often a double-edged sword, can be your best ally if used wisely. In this episode, we tap into the essence of being genuine on social platforms and how it aids in establishing your footprint in the Salesforce industry. We discuss the 'secret sauce' behind successful content creators and why developing resilience towards criticisms is a crucial life skill. Josh and Vanessa, our guests, emphasize the importance of consistency and learning from failures for success in the digital space. They also touch on the different career paths in the Salesforce ecosystem, the importance of taking risks, and not overthinking career decisions. Let's tune in, extract the wisdom, and plunge into the vibrant world of Salesforce!
And now the number one audio program that helps you to hire, get hired and soar higher in the Salesforce ecosystem. It's the Salesforce career show with Josh Matthews and Vanessa Grant.
Josh Matthews:Okay, welcome back everybody. It's part two of our sessions with Jordan Nelson. I'm your host, josh Matthews, my co-host, vanessa Grant. I run the Salesforcerecruitercom. You've got some amazing jobs up there right now.
Josh Matthews:So go ahead and go to the Salesforcerecruitercom, forward, slash j-o-b and if you're really interested in building your community, really learning more about who are the voices in our ecosystem that are really standing out, well, we've compiled the list, and by we I mean Vanessa Grant and myself have compiled a list of intelligent, smart people and links to all of these smart people, whether it's on YouTube or podcasts like Fred Kdenis got his disruption podcast, which is fantastic. So you can find all of these at expandexchangecom. So go visit expandexchangecom and it's our hope that by the end of the month our brand new website's out and the navigation will be even easier. So check that out. But here we are.
Josh Matthews:We're ready to dive into part two with Mr Jordan Nelson. Jordan's out of Utah, close to Lehigh, and he's been sharing his experiences of growing a following of 85,000 people just incredible and also his transition from being an employee to having his, to doing his own sort of on-the-side work, of helping others improve their LinkedIn presence and grow their personal Salesforce careers, and now he's got his own Salesforce consultancy and the floor is now open, wide open, for questions and input from everybody on our panel here. And, by the way, vanessa, maybe you can share, if someone has a question, what they might want to do.
Vanessa Grant:Sure, if anybody has a question, feel free to send me a DM. On Twitter, it's RL, vanessa Grant, or on LinkedIn Reel Vanessa Grant, and happy to ask a question on your behalf. If you are not here, live with us.
Josh Matthews:Okay, so if anyone does have a question, go ahead and ask. Now you can raise your hand. Vanessa, do you have any questions that you've received so far during this show?
Vanessa Grant:I did. I've been asking, I've been throwing it up on socials to see if folks have questions ahead of time. So I do have a few.
Josh Matthews:Let's dive right in. Let's dive in.
Vanessa Grant:So first of all, I'll ask, if you are a newly certified administrator and do not have a background in tech or in Salesforce, what are the best strategies to break into the industry, given the job market and current economic climate?
Josh Matthews:Oh man, who wants to weigh in on that? Jordan, go for it bud.
Jordan Nelson:I don't know if I have the greatest curiosity probably you.
Jordan Nelson:But no, I would just say kind of going back to like what we talked about today, even though there's still a lot of people like creating content, I still think, like trying to figure out some kind of way, whether that is through content or even just like a website, you only have it published for when you try to take an interview, something that will allow you to kind of have proof ahead of time.
Jordan Nelson:I think for me, what I've realized with the business and with finding jobs and any luck with any of that, is that kind of social proof is always key. So like when you go to Amazon, when you look at Amazon and you go to buy a product, like pay attention to, just like what the landing page looks like. It's like a ton of stuff, like reenoffing your brain to try to get you to buy the product, where it's like this is how many reviews we have and these are what the people have said about it, and this is going to only last for a day before the sell is over or whatever. So the more you can kind of recreate that same type of idea online, I think it makes it a little bit easier, and especially if you don't have, like the background to lean on, the more you can kind of prove that you know how to do this at a time. I think that makes things easier in the long run. But I'd probably refer to Josh on this one for sure.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm not a real expert in this. I mean, I like to be an expert on certain things, but breaking into a new industry is not something that I'm necessarily like. I wouldn't say like I'm the voice of that or anything like that. But what I will share is this when you just don't have the experience you've got the certification, but you don't have the background you're at a disadvantage. The first thing I like to ask people is like well, why did you even join this? What tempted you to turn whatever career trajectory you were on and point it in another direction? Can you answer that question? Do you love technology? If so, what about it do you love? Is it the people? Is it the thing? Is it what it can do? Or are you in this just so that you can wear pajamas to work in your home office and you don't have to go into another business anymore? So you've got to really answer those questions for yourself. And the next thing is basic research and involvement.
Josh Matthews:If you're behind the eight ball, meaning if it's going to be a little bit more difficult for you to get a win, to stand out from the crack, let's face it there's thousands of people with Salesforce admin certifications that aren't working in the ecosystem. Thousands of people who already have a background in tech and want to make a transition from whatever stack it is into Salesforce, and they may struggle to break it. The people who tend to make that move are one, they're willing to get paid less. Two, they're willing to do what they're told. So you've got to be kind of just ask yourself do I take good advice from good people and do I follow through on those recommendations? At the end of the day, if people just take the advice and then do the work, they're going to succeed. It might take them a little longer, it's okay, there's nothing wrong with that.
Josh Matthews:Think how long it takes to get a college degree. That might never have actually supported your career in the first place, other than now you've got a degree so you can apply to this job. So you've got to put the time in and you've got to be willing to let go of some of the income to get the education. So be willing to do that and you've got to stand out for some reason or another. And I think I don't know if it was the last.
Josh Matthews:I think, if you go back and listen to the military podcast. We had two in a row with Dave Nava and Ryan. I think you're going to see, it's just like that advice that we give to the military professionals who are making the transition applies to anyone. You don't have to have been in the army or the Navy or the Marines or the Air Force I think some of our awesome listeners on this show right now. Okay, but you just follow that advice. So this has been answered. Before I would just check out some of the past podcasts. That's what I would say. Go ahead, fred.
Fred Cadena:Sure and 100% agree with both what you and Jordan shared. The one thing I would say is and if I remember the question, they said they didn't have a technology or Salesforce background. They didn't have a consulting background. I would ask them what?
Fred Cadena:is the background that they had. I'm sure there's a reason to your point, josh. They pivoted away from that and that may not be where they want to stay, but that could be a good place to start their Salesforce journey. So if they came out of a career in retail, maybe go to a consulting firm that specializes in retail implementations for Salesforce and bring that expertise from working in that industry to that role and maybe what you are lacking in years of experience on the platform you can bring from that industry background or if you were in the military or if you were in XYZ before. Bringing that to help bridge some of that skill gap can make it a little bit easier for somebody who want to take a risk on somebody that maybe has not held a professional position in Salesforce until today.
Josh Matthews:That's right. Just capitalize on your industry, whatever that is. I mean, jordan made a clean break from vinyl wrapping cars, but he'd also done some tech before, so let's just ask Jordan that real quick. And then we've got questions from Peter Gonsen next, and then Vanessa. But Jordan, I mean, how did you break into tech in general, nevermind Salesforce?
Jordan Nelson:Yeah, yeah. So I wasn't really in that industry. I had asked the Salesforce admins that I knew of at Walmart eCommerce I was not really on that side of things that I asked and, honestly, yeah, I just started applying, for I happened to live in an area too where a lot of tech was popping up here in Lehigh. So, talking with a few people, they're saying that was the place to try to apply. So I really just focused my efforts on. All the applications I put in were for that industry. I didn't try to spread it so thin so that way, if it did land, it was going to be in the industry I wanted to be in.
Josh Matthews:Excellent Peter.
Speaker 8:I get this quite often. I'm with Jordan. There's so many people out there getting the certifications and all that kind of stuff, which is great, but prove it, make something, build something. Whether you have experience or not, you need to have the proof is in the pudding, so you can't just rely on the background, the experience or how many number of certifications you got to prove it and be able to show something and make it relevant. If you want to get into with their retail, build something, retail related, that's really the best thing.
Josh Matthews:I tell people to be able to break through the noise right now. I like it. I mean, everybody comes from something. It's all six degrees of separation, whether it's people or industries, so that makes a lot of sense. Go ahead, vanessa.
Vanessa Grant:So I was just going to throw in. I think there still is a need to do the basics where, if you are making a complete career transition, you have to go all in. Part of that is optimizing your LinkedIn. So you are obviously a Salesforce person. That might be difficult to do if you don't have any experience in IT, if you don't have any experience in Salesforce. That's where I think connecting with other people in the community, looking at job postings that you might be interested in.
Vanessa Grant:What do those entry-level roles look like? Who are the people who maybe are a step or two or even five ahead of you on this journey? What kind of words are they using? Have you built up the vocabulary so that you can get your search engine optimization on point for your LinkedIn? Do you have a good photo? Do you have a good cover? Is your resume updated so that you're really just focusing on those skills that are transferable? Based on the research that you've done on Salesforce jobs, I think all that is still relevant. But of course, now with the state of the industry, which is part of the question, yes, I do think that to accelerate your career journey, you do have to do that little bit of extra, since the market is very competitive right now.
Josh Matthews:Absolutely yeah, do your research, people. It's on Google. Figure it out, you'll figure it out. Jump on expand exchange. Literally, that is the fastest way to start getting connected with experts. And to Jordan's point in part one of this podcast we're on part two right now. It really talks about modeling what you do after other people who've done it successfully. Right, and it's a basic principle in business do what you know already works. You don't have to figure this all out for yourself. I mean, that would be a nightmare. I don't even know a lot of people who are smart enough to do that. I don't think I would be. So, yeah, just model others. Anthony, thanks for being on the show. Let's have you up because you're fairly new to the ecosystem and you came from doing awesome karate chops and having your own dojo and then now you're a Salesforce pro at a reputable consulting firm. So tell us your story real quick. What did you do?
Anthony Rodriguez:Well, I didn't do any one thing. It was like a mountain of things that finally came together. I got a mentor, which start kicked me off and a lot of people don't know this but I got to talk with the legendary Josh Matthews. I thought I knew how to write a resume, I thought I had a competitive resume, and when Josh reviewed it, he made me realize I'm throwing the kitchen sink at this, but I'm not telling that future job why I'm the best choice for them, what exactly is my value and where is my passion? And how were those two things tied together?
Anthony Rodriguez:So I had to go back to square one after Josh helped me get back in line and I redid my resume, highlighting the exact value I can bring if they want to give me an opportunity. And so I just want to say that, yeah, going back to the basics, when you're trying to break into the ecosystem, that resume needs to be dialed in 100%. And for those who have never been, if there's a local dreaming event, you got to put that on your radar. The networking that that's FaceTime Just the chance to get your face out there, say hello, have a casual conversation and do it right is so, so, so key. That was one of the big steps, along with my resume being dialed in, that helped me break in.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Anthony, and thanks for the plug. And look, I don't do resumes for people. I guess if I charged five grand a pop I'd probably do it, but I'm not going to. But they're really good. They're really good resume writers out there.
Josh Matthews:I can recommend a personal scribecom. Her name's Rosie. It's kind of an older site, but Rosie's dialed mine in over 20 years ago and I got my resume back. I was like, oh my God, I'm awesome, I'm so good. Look at this, so like you can really make a big difference. And then another woman that I refer a lot of folks to, particularly if you're more senior. I don't mean by age, but I mean if you're a director level or manager director level and above. I generally recommend people work with Jule Bracey Demayo. That's J-E-W-E-L-B-R-A-C-Y-D-D-M-I-O. Hopefully I spelled that right. But Jule's fantastic and she will craft an entire job hunt program for you, not just your resume, but she'll work on your LinkedIn profile for you.
Josh Matthews:Now, working with a professional always takes some. It costs something, right, and it usually costs more than anyone is prepared to pay. But when you are looking at this like a massive investment which it is it's one of the best investments you can make. It's the tip. It's like how sharp is the tip of your spear? If it's dull, it's just gonna bounce off of opportunities. If it's pointy, it'll stick, and that's what you want. So work with someone who's really good at helping you build that sharp, pointy tip, and I think that's going to help you quite a bit. So there you go.
Vanessa Grant:And for a free resource for folks that might be a little more frugal. I actually got a lot of value and updated my resume a little bit, based on David K Liu, who's a Salesforce MVP. He works at Google, he's a developer, but he has a YouTube video called Steel my Resume, which I found very valuable as far as how to craft a resume for Salesforce roles and even though I'm a BA and he's a developer or I consult now I did find his resume reviews and his Steel my Resume video to be really helpful.
Josh Matthews:Look, I'm with you there. But I honestly, like I know that video and I know David and I like this guy's done so much for the community, like he's done so much, he's like a lot of the people on this show just so willing to give his time and his knowledge. But I actually had some things about the way that he did that resume that I didn't really agree with, right. So there's always going to be different points of view, but the most important thing is just figure out where you're going to get your information from and follow their advice. If you start mish-mashing everything, if you took all of David's recommendations and my recommendations, I don't think that they would necessarily blend perfectly well. Like I just don't. That doesn't mean that his recommendations aren't awesome. Clearly they've worked well for you, vanessa, right, but there's been some. There were just one or two things I thought was like just kind of just skirting the edge of okay, if that does that make sense?
Vanessa Grant:Well, yes, I would love to hear if you had any, if you remembered anything specific that you didn't like. I'd be curious.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I'd have to look at it and like I like David and I like a lot of his content. But I just remembered something about the steal my resume thing. I just felt like it was a little bit throwing in a little bit of fluff, sort of hiding some of the facts under some shiny words. Yeah, I'm probably gonna have to delete this from the podcast because I really don't want to say anything negative about there. Like, oh my God, like you'll be like dude, what's up with that man? Like you wouldn't actually say dude, but you know, like I just remember a feeling.
Josh Matthews:I watched this thing and I looked at the recommendations and I reviewed the resume and yeah, I mean that resume got him into Google. Guess who else wants to get into Google? Frickin' everybody, cause they pay great, the benefits are great and you know, even if you don't want to wind up there forever, you know you get stock options and all these wonderful things. So it's difficult to get into a top five company, right Microsoft, oracle, apple, you know, and Google and so on, amazon. So like it's really good advice. But we've also got to be like really truthful. We don't want to hide too, and by truthful I mean we don't want to ever have to get caught in anything that we said on the resume and then have to go back and kind of explain why we explained it that way. Does that make sense?
Vanessa Grant:Yes, and I think that's excellent advice.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I'll tell you a quick story, guys. I one of my clients. They were hiring a salesperson. We don't place a lot of salespeople here. We do it sometimes, but we don't do it too often. And the reason why I don't do it too often is because when you're placing a salesperson, people who are A's or in business development on average statistically will have about twice as many fibs in an interview and on their resume as the average person. After all, they want people who are, who are. You have the gift of gab and or the gift of spin, right, like there's an element to that in sales and so, like it's.
Josh Matthews:While I find it forgivable, what's unforgivable is not being able to figure out where those inaccuracies in their communications are, and that's our job, right. So a client of mine was like hey, man, I interviewed this gal, she did great, but I've got these funny feelings from some of our communications, like she wasn't necessarily listening or she didn't actually read the email, that kind of thing. And I just said, hey, look, man, I'll, why don't I? Just I'll spend 45 minutes, I'll interview her for you Like it's a freebie, let me just do my you know quick little conversation and dig into some of these other points. And later that day we were. It was later that day or the next day we got on a call me and my client and I said so what's your understanding of where this individual is working like and why they want to leave? And they said well, my understanding is that they're not feeling supported and they want more leadership, responsibility. I said, okay, did you know that they were fired two months ago? He's like oh what? No? Well, they were for performance. Of course, I figured that out. That wasn't too hard.
Josh Matthews:But a lot of people, when they're interviewing, most people are professional interviewers. There are a lot of professionals. There's a lot of baristas in the world who can't make a good cappuccino. Just because you're a barista doesn't mean you're good at it. Just because you're a recruiter or a hiring manager doesn't mean you're good at interviewing. But people lie. They don't say, they hide things. Why wouldn't they? Because we're imperfect people, all of us. I'm imperfect, vanessa's not, but I am.
Josh Matthews:The reality is we've got to get through that mud. We've got to get clarity. The only way we can do that is by being absolutely committed, 100%, to being willing to this not working out. We talked about this in our last session. Remember, guys, we were talking about negotiations, right, fred? Remember that conversation? We had Jason on 100% great conversation. Yes, it was a great conversation. In fact, it was such a good conversation that I just did a proposal for Florida Dreaming to teach negotiating skills to Salesforce professionals for Florida Dreaming. Hopefully Mike and the panel give a thumbs up on that, because that'll be great. I will be going. If I can't be on that, I'll be on some other panel. If you go to Florida Dreaming, I'll be there and I'll see you guys, this idea that you just believe what's being said, or just believe and don't challenge people, that's the big deal here.
Josh Matthews:Guys, when I think about the people who are most successful in the world, they did a couple of things. First of all, they challenged themselves. They challenged themselves. It can be anything. Casey's son Connor he's 25, he just got his certification for jumping out of airplanes. He can now jump out of airplanes by himself, pack his own, shoot the whole thing. This guy went for it. This guy's a go-getter. He's just like I'm just going to do this. He'll wake up early and go get three jumps in and then go do a 20-mile run to get ready for his 100-mile Moab run. He's got it. He's challenging himself. I love that.
Josh Matthews:Another thing, part two, is you've got to challenge others. Not just challenge them to do better, but challenge them for the truth. What did you mean by that? Tell me more. Just keep talking, keep going. Who else helped you with that? You were a project manager on a $5 million implementation. That's great. How many PMs were there? Oh, there were four. Okay, what percentage? How much was yours? Oh, $500 grand. Out of the $5 million you had 10% of this $5 million project.
Josh Matthews:You don't come to light real quick. You've just got to be able to have good questions and, more importantly, be unafraid to ask them. When you get an answer that sounds funny, feels funny, then just say, hey, that sounds a little funny. What did you mean? Then you'll get to the truth, because we're all walking around with these personas. Jordan's got his sweatshirt and jean jacket. Persona guy, super cool guy. The fact is, he's a really snappy dresser. Actually. I know he's throwing up some smiley faces and laughing right now, but it's true, we've got Larry Lee in his buttoned up suit and tie. But, larry, you don't wake up and put a suit and tie on every day, do you? Probably not.
Josh Matthews:We've all got these images that we're pushing out there and portraying. We've got to challenge those images that we're getting. We've got to challenge that persona. It's a persona. It's not who we are deep down inside. Very few of us have the skills to be able to really be so authentic that it just is going to shine through. I don't even know why. I'm sorry, I didn't even have coffee and I'm ranting. I'm just going to shut up. Someone asked a question or chime in again.
Vanessa Grant:No, I think that was great, Josh. Actually, you talking about the drive, I actually just wanted to bring up something, if I may. I recently contributed to an article on Salesforce Ben. Mostly just a quote is written by Tom Bassett, but it's what I learned from failing multiple Salesforce exams. I think in this ecosystem, having that perseverance is huge. It's not even necessarily like let me just accomplish all these things. How do you continuously learn and how do you continuously pick yourself up? If you are in this industry long enough, if you are going for all those certifications, you are going to fail. Occasionally you are going to have that project that's going to be a dumpster fire. Occasionally You're like, okay, let me just get through it and I'll still call it a win. It's really important in this ecosystem To that, and I also want to give a shout out to one of our loyal listeners, Tyler Huff, after a few fails, has passed his admin exam, which he's not here anymore on the live show.
Speaker 7:I'm here, actually he's back, he's back no worries. I actually think I was so torn up I actually had to jump to an internal client call and I was like I'm missing the celebrity fest here, but maybe it was covered while I was gone. But if you don't mind, jordan, I had a quick question that I can. Can you guys hear me okay?
Josh Matthews:Yeah, buddy, you're on Go for it Right on.
Speaker 7:Excellent Again. Jordan, big fan, followed since maybe mid to early 2020, back when you're in the closet with 6,000 followers. If Bradley had to know this, good to see 85,000. The question is, obviously you got your system riled up. You got your thing. I've tracked it all for years now and you've shown lots of tips, lots of hacks. Is it a little bit of? I mean, the question is like what's the secret sauce? But also it's a little bit of like Nick Medjuli, like just keep buying, just keep posting, just be consistent, be the guy that's always hitting it daily, weekly, monthly, just everyone. I mean you're the real. I mean you could think you think okay, who posted on LinkedIn consistently about Salesforce? There's probably five people everyone could kind of think of and definitely I think you're one of those five, right, I mean, what do you see from your success and the numbers behind the curtain? And then what do you see from the other four people that you're friends with that are also on those top five every day?
Jordan Nelson:Yeah, good question. Thank you for the kind words too. I appreciate you following for as long as you have. It's funny. You referenced that video with Brad that I did like as I got into the system.
Speaker 7:Very few views. It's only 4,000 views. It's a hidden gem. People should go back and find it.
Jordan Nelson:Sweet. Yeah, I think it's definitely been a mix. I think Vanessa kind of started hitting on it at one point, josh a little bit as well, but there's definitely like something that goes on written which is like the negativity of all of it. I think what ends up deterring a lot of people is they get into it with the idea of it's going to give them a job and they're doing it to help people and then, unfortunately, in the way social media goes, is you kind of have to start developing some thick skin because you start getting comments or you start reading into the comments too much. People without perspective try to kind of tear you down. I would say so. I think there's one part of it, that which is like once you figure out that groove, once you start getting that negativity or you start reading into the comments, figure out what's best for you to not let that deter you.
Jordan Nelson:For me at this point I mentioned it earlier but I work with a ghost writer because I couldn't stay consistent. I couldn't stay consistent trying to do whatever I got Call clients, get all these things done by the end of the week, run a business and then think of content on top of that of what I was going to post and get it scheduled out. It was just it was too much. So I moved into something else where it still is like my messaging and my voice, but working with somebody else to help kind of get that delivered. And honestly, yeah, it has. It is kind of a dumb answer, but it is really a lot of the consistency, like me just doing this straight up for three years and staying on top of it and trying to look into trends too. Like there's there is one side of it too where you got to get better at it, like you can't just keep posting the same stuff if it's not getting views or it's not getting stuff like that shouldn't deter you to some degree. But the other side is like, well, the point is to get views so that I can get the job, or more people can see it so I can get the leads. So you do kind of have to figure it out and be willing to ship it.
Jordan Nelson:And that's where I want to say that Josh and Vanessa hit on it because I still do that to this day and I think some people are like afraid of that. They'll delete the post because I got 85,000 followers and I only got 13 likes. It's like well, I learned something from it. Nobody cares the way I said it, like I either use the language that was crappy or the formatting was bad or the messaging was off. So I don't delete it, I let it stay. So I use that as a learning point, like, okay, never do that again. So when I pull up my stats, I can go back and look at the bad ones too to realize what was good, what was bad and how do I do more of the good. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah, I did Thank you so much and that was good and I think definitely less than everyone, just to keep it up and, like you said, you know you're doing something right if you get a lot of negativity, right.
Josh Matthews:You know I got a quick story for you guys that's kind of tied into this, which is about being keeping things positive, right and understanding. To Jordan's point that, yeah, like, if you get popular enough, let's just say what it is. You know enough followers, it's popularity, right. So if you get popular enough, you're going to have some detractors and or haters or whatever you want to call them. So yesterday afternoon I was over at my friend Ryan Berklin's art studio and gallery. He's a famous in the Portland area, is a famous artist, he's a wonderful like long, long time friend and just he's an ex marine and he's just like the funniest dude ever. And he told me a story about how he was. He was on Instagram and does anyone here know who Jeff Koons is.
Josh Matthews:Jeff Koons is one of the most well known modern pop artists not pop music, but visual artists in America right now, one of the highest paid artists of all time. Some people don't make sell their artwork for the amount of money that he does unless they've been dead for a hundred years, but he's figured out, he's figured it out. So my friend Ryan Berklin, who I called Berkey, so Berkey was on his Instagram and someone had written a comment, saying like, oh, this stuff's not that great and just kind of like rag. And I think this other, this person who was commenting, was an artist and they were just bagging on Jeff Koons, which is, well, it's stupid, right, and to do that stupid, to be negative. And Ryan piped up and he said hey, what's, help me remember what's the name of that that artist that used to just like bag on other artists and got really famous. And the guy responded to the like oh, I don't know, he's like that's right, cause that's never happened. And then Jeff Koons actually wrote him. He's like hey, man, thanks for, like, thanks for the defense. So he got the. You know, he actually got.
Josh Matthews:You know, I'm not saying Jeff Koons is his hero. I don't know if he is or not, I don't think he is but he has a lot of respect for him because he's the guy who makes those giant sculptures that look like huge, shiny balloon animals, right, but they might be like 15 feet high, so like mad props for that. So, keeping it positive, ignoring the detractors and sort of standing up for, for keeping things moving in a in a good, positive direction, that's why I always hate saying anything kind of negative about anybody on this show and I feel, like I did earlier and I feel bad about that, like it's just, but I, you know, I think truth is better than than kindness. Sometimes, right, and truth isn't always kind, but that doesn't mean just bag on someone. So when you are out there doing your LinkedIn game, it's easy to use the the dark side to become powerful, but you're just going to be left with a bunch of darkness, right, nobody likes. Nobody likes Senator Palpatine or Darth Vader.
Vanessa Grant:Right, like, let's face it, Well, I just want to say that there's a oh sorry.
Fred Cadena:I just I was like the principle of criticize in private, praise in public, right, If you you can have constructed feedback through that privately, praise people publicly.
Josh Matthews:I just absolutely, absolutely. So with that in mind, fred, everybody should check out David Lou. L it's spelled it for me, vanessa, is it L? L-i-u? Yeah, check out David Lou, check out his. You know the work that he's done. His podcasts, his vlog, his vlog, not podcasts. His vlogs are fantastic. Make sure that you're following that guy, because that guy is a real gem and he's a real gift to the ecosystem.
Vanessa Grant:Absolutely and you know I, I to that point. I think it's, I think it's okay to disagree with people, though I don't think that disagreeing with people or even disagreeing with decision sales force makes, or disagreeing with you know, maybe a change that's been made to sales force or not liking something that's happening in the ecosystem and expressing those views, I don't. I don't really see necessarily an issue with that, unless you are doing it just to be controversial, which I have seen some folks kind of lean into on LinkedIn, which I don't love if most of their stuff is just oh, let me have a hot take on something. But I think if you have a thoughtful disagreement with somebody, it does, I think, help other people who might be reading see different sides to something. Different people might see different benefits or or negatives to to different situations, and I think it's okay to discuss those.
Josh Matthews:It is and you should back it up, right, like, spend five minutes reading a couple articles, like, no, like, get more than one perspective before you start synthesizing it, and just remember that, no matter what your idea is, it's probably not yours. You know, most of us just regurgitate what other smart people have said, who are regurgitating or synthesizing other thoughts that other smart people have said, like that's the truth of it. I don't, I don't know if I've ever had an original thought on this show. I'll be honest, like I don't know, like I learned whatever I learned I learned from other people. You know, I might have figured some stuff out through the school of hard knocks, that, but it doesn't mean it's original. That's just the school of hard knocks. Here's your degree, right? Like everyone who graduates with this is going to know these five things, right. So you know, just understand that you're. You're not original just for hating on something. There's nothing original about that. It's the easy position.
Josh Matthews:But I love what you said, vanessa. It's so true, being kind and disagreeing aren't the same thing, right? Sorry, art opposites is what I meant. So I think we might have time for one more question or plug or whatever, because we're coming up on 90 minutes. 90 minutes shows pretty darn good. What do you think, vanessa? You got some more questions there, sure.
Vanessa Grant:So I have a question that somebody sent in. They said that they've been an educator for most of their career and they're new to IT. They worked for a small company as a business analyst and now have an opportunity to work at a company's Salesforce business unit as a project coordinator. Do we have any suggestions as far as which paths to choose in the Salesforce ecosystem for them?
Josh Matthews:Well, so let's hear that again. So they're currently a BA and they're looking at being a project coordinator.
Vanessa Grant:So they were a BA for a little bit at a small company. They are now going to be a project coordinator, but they've been an educator most of their career and I think they're a little bit lost on paths of the Salesforce ecosystem.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, I mean I'd want to talk to them to figure it out, but I mean, are they so? Is this person on the show right now?
Vanessa Grant:No, they're not.
Josh Matthews:Okay. So I mean, I don't know, that's kind of a trick, like you can go anywhere with that. I mean, I've always seen PC or BA as the paths to project management not always, but often Right. So a lot of times people get into the BA world because they like the BA work, but really they're stepping stone to project manager and that doesn't mean that project manager is better than being a BA. It's not necessarily better. It might pay a little bit better by a small margin. Overall, if you look at all PMs and all BAs in our ecosystem or in tech in general, probably some additional opportunities for more senior leadership coming from a PM background and a project coordinator. Look, if you've been a BA and you get an opportunity to do project coordination, which is it's different for every company, right? I've always viewed a PC or a project coordinator as kind of like a junior project manager. It's like what a sorcerer is to a lead recruiter, right? What do you think I mean? How would you describe it?
Vanessa Grant:Yeah, I would agree with that. I think right now they've got a taste of business analysis and now they're getting a taste of project management, and I think both of those can go any number of paths in the Salesforce ecosystem.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, fred, pipe up.
Fred Cadena:Yeah, a little contrarian perspective. I don't usually think of BA as a stepping stone to PM. I think of BA like a true business analyst, somebody that's truly in business process, business process documentation and improvement, and then building that on the platform as a stepping stone to solution architecture and business architecture and being more sophisticated and bringing technology solutions to bear. I think that project coordination, project management, program management is a different path. I think that really, I think this is the one you need to get into core, which is like you've got to search yourself in what you really want to do, because those are two very different jobs where what you're going to do day in and day out is very different.
Fred Cadena:Yes, especially in some smaller firms, project coordinator, project managers, get hands on, but as those projects and programs get more sophisticated, you are really managing resources, managing time, making sure things are documented, issue log, making sure that clients are getting communication on what's going on. You're not necessarily getting deeper in the platform. If that's what jazzes you up, then you're moving away from that. If you really like project management and program management, that's a totally different skill set. If you're early and you're trying different things on, go for it. If you have a taste of what's what I would focus on, what really brings you the most joy, day in and day out.
Josh Matthews:Fred. I think that makes a lot of sense. I can see it both ways. Most of the BAs that I worked with and placed over my career were in the Java or NET stack. A lot of those folks look, a lot of the PMs were managing the BAs. I never saw a BA manage a PM. I've never seen it once. Just because of that, it's like this leveling up thing. Then there's getting a PMP search, kind of a pain in the butt. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. You've got to get your 2000 hours in documented and so on. It's not. You're right, the BA track can easily go into the solution architect and on up from there. But it's sometimes a natural step because the BAs and the PMs work in tandem, so closely together, that one wants that slight pay raise and more managerial responsibility. Go ahead, janine.
Janeen Marquardt:Yeah, hi there, I would say that I would agree, fred, back in the olden days when the BA and the PM were one thing, then yeah, that would now probably be referred to as a technical project manager, because back before Salesforce, back in the beginning of tech, I did wireframes and design and all of the stuff that we now come to think of as BA. I was a project manager and I did the PMP and that's what I was doing. Now those really are two different disciplines and recognize two different disciplines. I think of the project manager role as it really has become a split where that's very focused on customer communication, logistics, management of the project team and the task and time and with the I'll call it the advent or the introduction of agile the focus has taken on complete management of getting it done and not the technical side, where the BA really is the understanding of the technical aspects of it and the path towards architecture. There really is a really strong split between those things. Project coordinator is the path towards project manager and the BA would be more that path in the more technical direction. It doesn't mean a PM could have BA skills or a BA could and should have PM skills, should absolutely have leadership skills. Those are definitely interchangeable, but they're definitely also different tracks and paths and you'll hit a certain point in time when you might have to choose.
Janeen Marquardt:I think if somebody is trying to make a choice, it doesn't mean you have to always be one or the other. But I think you need to be really clear. If you go straight down a PM path and you're not going to stay technical and keep upskilling yourself technically, you will find yourself at a point in time when you can't. There are project managers out there who project manage and that's what we do, and then they got to keep their hands out of the technical cookie jar. You've got to decide what you like. If you like technical stuff and you want to understand the Salesforce platform technically speaking, go down that BA path. But understand how to lead, how to do agile and how to do the logistics and manage time and people Great. You're always going to be a skill you need.
Josh Matthews:Yeah, good perspectives, janine, both you and Fred. I appreciate hearing both your voices today because really I've been basing all of my responses based on stuff I was doing between five and 20 years ago. I know it's changing, let's face it. Salesforce is its own thing. This is not dynamics and it's not Oracle and it's not all of these other stacks. It's its own thing. It's Darwinian. You split off from the pack and then you evolve on your own on this island of Salesforce and it's going to look a little bit different, even though we use the same titles across all tech stacks. Interesting stuff. Last questions, and then we'll give it a little wrap up here Vanessa.
Vanessa Grant:Well, actually I just wanted to add a little bit to that, if you don't mind. I actually want to take it back to what Jordan had brought up when I was discussing his transition from BA to admin to consultant. Jordan really whittled it down to tasks that he was good at and tasks that he enjoyed and tasks that people kept putting him to be responsible for. I encourage folks out in the ecosystem, since there are a lot of different roles and I think that there is such an emphasis on being an admin and sometimes that doesn't necessarily feel like something that fits for everybody. It is kind of like the lowest common denominator position sometimes. I think exploring these different paths and figuring out what are those tasks you want to do and seeing people speak, reading articles and seeing what resonates can often help you figure out what that path is going to look like in the future.
Vanessa Grant:Again, finding those people who, when they like the first time I saw Richard Cunningham speak at Tahoe, Dreaming I almost kind of like white-knuckled my seat just because I was so excited to hear him speak and everything he said really resonated to me and it really validated the path that I was on. I think, if you can find those resources that you're like. Yes, I totally agree with this viewpoint. I agree with those things and I like doing those tasks. It will help give you some clarity on figuring out where you want to go. Even this person who has an education background if there are certain aspects of that education background, if there are certain tasks that they like putting curriculums together, if they like instructing people there are roles in the Salesforce ecosystem for that, too. It's just a matter of finding people that have been on that path before and seeing what they did and seeing what jobs they've had, to figure out your own path in the ecosystem.
Josh Matthews:I love it, man, exactly that. It kind of begs the question. Well, if you're an educator, why are you leaving education? Something about it wasn't gelling. There's something going on there. We're either running towards something or we're running away from something. Sometimes it's both. It's the carrot and the stick and I'm curious well, what's the stick going on over in education right now? I would say to this person, to Jordan's point earlier, that was an excellent point. Maybe it was Jordan, I think it was Jordan, I can't remember, maybe it was Peter.
Josh Matthews:But yeah, do what you know, go apply at jobs that are education organizations and go do Salesforce work for them. You're going to be a little bit more in your wheelhouse and a little bit more the obvious choice for the job. That's not a bad thing. But if you're leaving education because you can't stand it anymore, well, you might want to get just as far away from it as possible. Right, might be a harder road to go and you might find that the same challenges you had in the industry you're in right now are completely dependent not on the industry but on the manager that you have, on the company policies, like whatever. You can find reasons for any job to not be awesome or any industry to not be awesome, but you can also find great reasons why any industry is great too. It's a real personal decision and I always hate those YouTubers who do reviews and they're like. At the end of the day, it's personal choice and you figure it out.
Jordan Nelson:It's like well, thanks for nothing.
Josh Matthews:Just tell me what to do, I'll go buy the thing. It's no different here. I'm like, yeah, you can do anything you want, Just go try it. Who cares? Who cares? It's a long life, Most of us. We're not going anywhere for a while. You can afford a year as a project coordinator somewhere and if it doesn't work out or you don't like it, you can leave and do something else. Now you get to say you were a project coordinator and you've got all of those skills. Who cares? It doesn't matter.
Josh Matthews:People spend so much time trying to make the right choice first and let's face it, they're only right about half the time. Thank God for that. Thank God for that, because if they were right all the time, they'd never learn a damn thing. We learn most when we are in situations where there's some sort of resistance, discord. It's a problem that we know we've faced in the past, but we didn't solve it well before. What can we do differently this time? It doesn't really matter, let's go out. I'd say it's more important to like the people that you're working with and not hate the work that you're doing than to love the work that you're doing and not like the people that you're doing it with. Does that make sense? That's me.
Vanessa Grant:I totally agree with you. It's okay to take opportunities that maybe don't seem like a perfect fit, just to see if they do fit. Everybody knows me as a business analyst. That's the skill set that I feel very comfortable with, but I'm currently on a project as a Scrum Master. Yes, I have a Scrum Master certification, but it's my first time actually being a Scrum Master and I'm learning a lot. That is part of this journey. You have to continuously learn. Am I going to keep moving forward on this particular path? Probably not, to be honest, but at least I know myself better now than I did three weeks ago.
Josh Matthews:Exactly. Yeah, go jump out of an airplane, go run a really long race, Go be a project coordinator, go be a Scrum Master for three months or six months. It's all just going to be enriching, no matter what. You're going to come out with a couple cool stories to tell. Laugh about, cry about lessen, learn, you'll be all right. Don't overthink it. I watched the dumbest movie last night. It was called 65. I don't know if you've heard of it, but I watched it on the airplane. I say last night, it was actually about one in the morning on the airplane. It's Adam Driver, is from some alien world and he lands on Earth 65 million years ago, age of the dinosaurs. He's got this little. It's basically like true grit planet Earth 65 million years ago. He's got this little girl who's like parentless and they've got to find their way to the escape pod. It's one of those adventures. What's your story, kirby?
Janeen Marquardt:I watched the other movie.
Josh Matthews:What's that?
Janeen Marquardt:I feel like I saw this movie.
Josh Matthews:Do you see what I mean? You feel like, but it's such not a great movie that why would you remember it?
Vanessa Grant:Adam Driver. Of course, I got recommended to watch this movie, but not because of the dinosaurs, let me just put it that way.
Josh Matthews:Look, he's a good looking guy, I'll give him that Some of it. The principles are kind of cool, except that it's still a stupid movie At the end of the day. He kept this girl. She basically had one rule that he was trying to convey to her, and they spoke different languages. That was the whole story in and of itself, a whole trial, that one thing that he was trying to get her to do.
Josh Matthews:Just two things. One was the sign for be quiet so that the monsters don't hear us. It's a monster movie, let's face it. That's what it was. It was a monster movie. It's Godzilla, just done differently.
Josh Matthews:The other one was move, keep moving, no matter what, keep moving. Do those two things. Just keep moving, keep quiet, get it done. I don't mean keep quiet, don't have a voice, I just mean go to work. People, you're brand new. They tell you what to do, go do it. You got a problem with it. Ask the question. I tried to do it. It didn't work out. This is what happened. How else can I do it? This is what I researched. How else can I do it? Just keep moving, though. Make decisions, adapt or die.
Josh Matthews:Nobody knows this, but we don't embody it on a daily basis. People get so hung up. I know this for a fact because I was just talking to Ollie, my youngest son. He's 17. We were all out to dinner me and Charlie and Ollie, my two boys and we were up in Portland with a couple of my best friends. One of them asked him something about college. Where is he going? He just said look, I just don't even want to talk about it right now Because it's stressful, because it's this big monster, huge decision. His older brother piped up. Charlie said and I thought it was really smart. He's like dude, I know the feeling. Trust me, it feels super stressful.
Josh Matthews:Now, once you get into college and you decide that's where I'm going to go, I promise you, college is way easier than this whole idea of getting into college and figuring it out and making this huge decision. It's going to change your life. It doesn't matter you go to Florida State or Oregon State or University of Florida or University of Oregon. You're going to meet about the same number of people. You're going to have about the same level of education. You're going to have about the same quality of courses. You're going to have about the same job prospects. Now, it's a little bit different if you're an engineer and you're going to Cal Poly, your MIT. It's going to be a little different if you're a computer scientist, I think, going to University of Phoenix.
Josh Matthews:Let's face it, that's the truth. But for the majority of us it doesn't matter. You just need to get your degree. It's like you need to get your admin cert. It's like you need to get your you know, office video cert or whatever. Just make the decision and don't stop moving forward and you're going to be fine. Last final words of wisdom One little, give us a golden nugget, buddy.
Jordan Nelson:Put me on the spot. I don't know. I'm on the spot.
Josh Matthews:You knew you were going to be on the show, get out of here.
Jordan Nelson:I don't know what to leave everybody. You have to golden nugget. That's the pressure. No.
Jordan Nelson:I think everything that you guys have all said is great. I think the thing that I wanted to double down on that I heard you start saying with that example of like the musician and yeah, definitely to Vanessa's point too Like we can always disagree I think there's that thing I've doubled down on is when you are going through that journey, if you do choose to post on socials, stand out. You're never going to get criticized by somebody that's above you. You tend to only get criticized by people that are either at your level or below you. As Josh said, the person that's getting all the likes and has already spent the time to develop the social media presence. They're not going to care what you put on there for your first post or second post. They're going to be pumped that you're doing it. I would just say to double down on that. Remember that as you're going through your journey.
Josh Matthews:That's excellent, jordan. I'd like to thank you so much for being on the show. I love you, buddy, you're always welcome here. I want to give our friend, mr Fred Cadena, a chance to just share with us what his latest podcast is about, so everybody who's listening to this can go check that out. It's called Cross-Pollination. Fred, what's your next podcast that you're going to be released, or the most recent one you released about?
Fred Cadena:Last Thursday we released one with John Cahay-Gun he is the Chief Data Officer of BCU Credit Union in Chicago talking about Salesforce the potential transformation of the important event in data-write Awesome episode. I'll also just put a quick plug-in. Two weeks from now, I'm at West Dreaming. I will be there along with 700 of my closest friends. I am giving a talk on leveraging LLM in making best practice sales for solutions. If you're interested, come and join that session.
Janeen Marquardt:Anthony and I will be there too. We're scuba divers.
Fred Cadena:I am also a scuba diver.
Janeen Marquardt:I saw that.
Josh Matthews:You guys could have a Salesforce scuba diving podcast. I like it. Yeah, mashup, scuba, salesforce mashup so sweet. So listen guys. If you haven't had your fill, you're like, wow, it's been almost two hours of content tonight here on the show and you just can't fall asleep until you get another 45 minutes in. Go check out the latest podcast that we just dropped a couple hours ago. It's the Salesforce Career Show on your favorite platform. Make sure that you like, subscribe all that other good stuff and we'll be back in two weeks with another awesome guest and our terrific panel that's here all the time.
Josh Matthews:And if you would like to be a guest on this show, you can do one of two things. One show up to the live show. That's all you got to do. Just show up, raise your hand, we'll bring you on the stage and just start piping up. It's literally that easy. That said, if you're a subject matter expert around some area of Salesforce and you would really like to share your knowledge on this one specific sector, particularly if it's related to Salesforce careers, leveling up, improving your career, anything like that Then by all means go ahead and reach out to me directly, josh, at thesalesforrestrecreatercom, and share with me what you'd like to talk about and we'll see if we can't get you on the show and highlight some of your knowledge. All right, with that, good night to everybody. Have a wonderful, wonderful couple of weeks. We'll be back here in two weeks, on Wednesday at 2.30 Pacific, 5.30 Eastern. Bye for now.